Thread: Why Pyramid?

Honing a razor requires experience and a feel for when to switch from one grit to another. Anyone starting out will lack this ability so they have two choices, practice and ruin a good blade or get an Eboy special and practice with that until they get the experience necessary. The pyramid is just a starting point in the honing process. For one lacking experience it will enable you to do a pretty good job from the start and once you develop experience you will find its still a good starting point from which to make alterations to suit the needs of each individual blade you work with.

I think that anytime you put your blade to any size grit the name of the game is removing metal. The coarser the grit the faster it will remove it and it will remove it in a coarser fashion. I think you could well develop a bevel with an 8K or even a 12K but it would take forever however you couldn't really polish a blade with a 1K or a 4K you need the 8K or 12K for that. Its kind of like, would you fly cross country in a little cessna at 140 knots or a 737 at 500 knots? Both will get you there but one will take longer. On the other hand if your flying from an point A to point B only 25 miles away its very impractical to take a 737 the cessna would be the way to go.

OK I didn't want to open this can of worms, but what the hell. I'm feeling a bit froggy this evening . Let me preface my little rant here by saying that I hope I don't come across in the wrong way. I think these types of discussions are healthy for the str8 shaving world, and I always learn from them. This is not so much a reply to this thread as it is a general point I've been thinking about elaborating on. This just seems like the place to do it, and this is sort of a reply to some common themes I've been seeing.

Now then. I don't think anyone is arguing against the fact that the 4k side of a Norton cuts faster than the 8k side. Of course it does. 8k does cut, however. If it polishes, it cuts, albeit at a much slower rate. It will get you there, eventually. Now as for the 4k "teeth"... Stone me and call me a heretic, but I do NOT think 4k "teeth" are necessary to a good shave. I know most everybody here is in the "striations" & "saw teeth" corner of the argument, but not me. That makes no sense to me whatsoever, neither in theory nor in practice, not at anything near the 4k level. The only purpose of the 4k stone to me is setting and trueing the bevel before moving on. I will concede this, however: No matter how fine our cutting media gets, there are always going to be some striations left behind in the steel. Otherwise no cutting would have taken place. I also understand that these tiny teeth aid the blade in gaining purchase to slice into the outer wall of a hair shaft. We strive to get the ever sharper edge, by moving from 4k to 8k to coticule, to shapton pro 15k, hell even some use the 30k stone. After that it is pastes..... Anyway, all of these cut. All of these leave striations. The higher ones polish, but how do they do this? By miniscule cuts which leave striations. "Polish" is a subjective word. The 4k stone polishes as compared to the 1200 grit Spyderco stone. Each level smooths over the work of the previous. I don't understand what X means by "overpolishing" an edge at 8k. I take my edges all the way to .25 micron paste. They shave (me) wonderfully. By the time the edge reaches this point, there is absolutely nothing left from the 4k stage other than the bevel. After the 4k stage of my honing, and this may be knife technique if that's what it's called, my goal is to further refine the edge with each graduation by removing as much as possible the striations left by the previous level and replacing them with the striations of the current level. All the way up to .25 micron. If bigger teeth are necessary to effectively cut a whisker, then why do the shaves get better the further away you get from the 4k? I go from the 15k stone to the .25 micron paste. I notice a difference with only that jump. Sure after the 15k and smooth leather it will shave fine, but taking it one step further with the paste makes it BETTER. Hell, 60 passes as opposed to 20 passes on the .25 makes a difference. What am I doing with each level up? Making the teeth smaller and smaller. Making the striations smaller and smaller. Could some of this be in my head? Very possible, I won't argue that. I would really like to see a blade actually cutting a whisker on a microscopic level. If there is something to bigger teeth, maybe that would show me. In my own shaves, however, the sharper the better. The finer the edge, the easier it is for it to slice into the shaft of the hair. It only makes sense that the bigger the teeth, the more likely it is to tear into the hair rather than slice. Read~~PULLING. Even at .25 micron, there ARE teeth that will aid the blade in gaining a foothold in the outer wall of the shaft. I also do not subscribe to the school of a razor being "too sharp". To me, that is an oxymoron. It isn't possible with the tools at our disposal and the steels we deal with. Even if you had a .0000025 micron paste and used it on a glass strop, the grain size of the steels in these razors would still leave tiny tiny teeth. Yeah they'd be small, but they'd be there. Based on that theory, I try to go as fine as possible, and the higher I go the less pull I've found in my shaves. A traditional str8 will never be as sharp as a feather blade purely base on edge geometry, but it is fun to try to get as close as I can.


OK guys, flame away! I can take it There are many honemeisters here before whose feet I would loyally lay my stones. These are just my views of what works for me, and I've been referred to as an anti-establishmentarian more than once in my life.

Jeff

Do any of you follow the pyramid blindly, or do you all use microscopes? I thought that a 10x magnifying glass would suffice, but I have heard that it will not.

Thanks for the feedback, there are some good thoughts to ponder here. So far I have been practicing with 2 ebay razors on my Norton. Without using the pyramid (because I didn't understand why), I have pretty good results. The ebay blades are great to practice with as I have had a few mishaps while learning how to develop the "feel" for honing. So, being open minded as I am, I will experiment with the pyramid and see it if makes a difference to me . I always strive for perfection so I imagine I will get it to work!

Emil

JL- I don't think any of us follow the pyramid blindly, most I think use whatever technique we use to judge blade sharpness and then determine when to stop using the pyramid and start focusing on other techniques.

Threeput-I agree on one level, but I think there are other options. I agree that 4K isn't the cutting edge but I have razors that are very sharp, and I consider these traditional. They cut simply because I have honed them to the thinest possible edge. I have other razors that are dull, really dull, and really smooth. And you know what, they cut whiskers just as effectively. Now I agree completely with what your saying on your razors, but you know what, its not the only path. You don't need teeth to cut, but you can cut using teeth. At least in my opinion. You can create a razor nearly as sharp as a DE. You can create a razor that cuts using teeth too. Again, only my opinion. But I think you should try it out, take one of your razors and just try and build teeth with it and don't hone it into oblivion like a DE, just let the teeth do the cutting and you'll see, eventually, that it is possible. Now, I don't know if you can have it both ways. I don't know if you can have ultra thin and have cutting teeth. In fact, I think most likely your right, most guys on here hone a razor into oblivion and they don't have any teeth on the blade. It cuts, just like a DE, by slicing into the whisker. But I've shaved with blades that simply weren't sharp by any definition and shouldn't cut. You can swipe the blade around your face at any angle and you hardly notice, yet it removes the whisker and feels smooth. I agree with you completly that MOST everyone here follows this protocol and most probably don't have any teeth on there razors, but I respectfully would like to disagree with any assertion that that is the only path to honing a razor to make it shave. It does explain everyones constant "ultra light" touch perspective on hone and strop, and why I use pressure on the hone and pressure on the strop though very clearly. I may agree someday that your approach, as with most others, that this ultra fine DE style slicing is the best way to shave. I don't know yet, but I do know that if I want a slicing blade I can get that pretty easy just by buying it. What I can't get is the ultra smooth cut that I achieve with a straight on any grit between 4K and 8K, never higher, and how that razor shaves sooooooo smooth. I have both styles of honing in my razor arsenal, mostly because I think experimentation is fun. But just because one person thinks a razor needs to be a Mach 3 wanna be, doesn't mean that decades of barbers were wrong. There could be other paths you just haven't seen yet.

And I agree with you, in your case, your right.

AF,

I must admit I'm a little bit at a loss of words as to how to respond to that. Firstly, thanks for the support. I honestly thought I was AGAINST the common ideal here on SRP. I thought everybody would rain hell down on me for what I thought in regards to honing, I never had an inclination to think I was in the majority with my views. As to shaving with teeth, I cannot truthfully say that I disagree with your views either. Only that I have never experienced it. The thought is intriguing though, and merits exploration. With my methods, I've never reached a smooth shave until way past that point on the stones, however, so the opportunity to see what you mean has never jumped up and presented itself. Different methods I suppose. Another factor could be that I have a very heavy beard, and if I ever cut corners, it is with my beard preparation. If a blade is not up to snuff for me, I don't really notice it until I get around to my chin area. That's the make or break section of my shave. If there's any tendency whatsoever for a blade to pull or catch on whiskers, it becomes painfully obvious when I reach my chin. Not literally painful, but I can shave all day with a sub-par edge and not get close there. Scything, straight down, across, whatever ~ makes no difference. Believe me when I say I hope I can learn your method and employ it as an option. I like the idea of your arsenal having both types of edges for different applications, or moods if you will. It sounds like less work, and I have several razors that simply won't take the kind of edge I'm trying to impart. TI's, no problem. Pumas and some Ducks, piece of cake. Beyond that, the blades that can handle it become fewer and farther between. The newer stuff (aside from a select few) seems to respond better. I can't WAIT until I get my hands on a custom with one of the hot-rod steels. Thanks for your feedback, and thanks for not tar-and-feathering me I must admit, I still have a feeling the lynch mob hasn't doused their torches just yet. I'll be watching this thread with great anticipation for the next few days heh

Jeff

Originally Posted by threeputt

AF,

As to shaving with teeth, I cannot ...

Jeff

Zappa's great album cover, once posted by Corey Greenberg on his shaveblog...

Jeff, I will put away my scyte and torch this time. Sharpening razors is lost art, and we are all trying to do our best here. That teeth thing didn't make any sence for me either, so since it was written in the barber's manual from 60's and discussed here a lot, I started collecting microscope pics and I am still puzzled. The pyramid method, weeell, I am still using it a bit, but every now and then, and than with hesitation... I try to keep my razors sharp with just the 8000, and rarely when things don't look good under my 8x jeweler's loupe, I'll hit the 4000... The pyramid method was created on the first place to avoid overhoning on the edge. Varying between high and low grits, if there is a burr (or wire edge) forming on the 4K, the 8K side will take care about it. It was designed (I think) for honing dull razor, or very dull eboy special. On those edges, the bevel is often uneaven across the edge, and if using just the 4K, when sharpening one part of the edge, you might oversharpen another. That's why you alternate grits, and going to the finer grit, you remove burr from the lower. Just like in knife sharpening, you don't go to the finer grits, untill you raise burr on the lower...

Now, there was a GREAT article link, for a large pdf document posted over at the yahoo forum. The document is called "Experiments on Knife Sharpening" and it's written by:

John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Iowa State University
Ames, IA

It adresses the techniques of sharpening any edge, including straight razor's, and using SEM (scaning electrone microscope) pics up to 10,000x magnification (it's not a typo) is a must read for sharpening geeks... On ocasion, they are measuring the edges of an (expertly) honed straight razor and fresh gillete blade, and they look almost identical, with the very cuting edge thickness of about 0.35~0.4 microns...
I tryed uploading it here last night, but with no success... I think it was downloaded directly from the Department of Materials Science and Engineering, Iowa State University web site...

have fun,
Nenad

Originally Posted by threeputt

I don't understand what X means by "overpolishing" an edge at 8k. I take my edges all the way to .25 micron paste. They shave (me) wonderfully.

I use the 0.25 as well. In fact I follow the 8k with about 6 laps on the 12k followed by the 0.5 mocron stick and finally about 10 - 20 passes on the 0.25. I have just experienced that too much honing on the higher grits can over smooth or perhaps round the edge beyond the point of a good shaving edge. I don't use a microscope, but I am continually doing the thumb test and the hanging hair test and both of these tests as well as the shave provide feedback to me which reaffirms my conclusions.

I look at it this way;
Some serrated knives have large teeth like this; AAAAAAA
Other serrated knives have smaller teeth like this;^^^^^^
Some have small teeth and larger teeth intermixed, like this;A^^A^^A^^A^^A^^A^^
Moving up in grits adds smaller teeth to the larger ones, like this;A''^''^''A''^''^''A''^''^''A
This is the best shaving edge I can make. To overdo it on the higher grits only leaves behind the smaller teeth like these;'''''''''''' which can be too small and get bunched up in the hairs thus shaving less effectively. The combination of some deeper grooves and some shallower ones seems to provide the sublime edge.

Each man's beard is different, so differences will occur, but that's the experience I have while honing.

X

well. without all of the scientific knowledge and im not anyone to give advise. but my experience has been with the pyramid. i got 10 perfect shaves before i needed to re hone. i tried the pyramid then just kept polishing on the 8k. two shaves and both times the blade was struggling. so ill say the pyramid is what ill use.

I know those of you who think differently aren't going to like this, but I did the small pyramid and left it at that, no pastes followed

First of all The Thumb Test produced a wildly noticable tickling sensation with almost no biting or cutting feel at all. This was not the case with the wire edge or with a distempered blade I have. Clearly the sensation is not only because I have fingerprints, but also because the edge has texture.

The Hanging Hair Test sliced hairs almost effortlessly right up the blade, even worked with the wrong end sticking out over half the blade. The othr half still cut them, but with some effort.

Finally The Shave Test, and what a shave. after a week of scraping away with an incomplete edge it sure is nice to get a good shave in.

Conclusions: I don't want to read too much into this, but that to say that for wahtever reason, the pyramid is a super method for getting a great edge. I believe that is partially due to the deapth of texture which is created along the edge. I'm not saying that the 8000 side alone couldn't do it, but it's harder with that tool alone and possible that the edge would be better made using the 4000 in moderation.

Sorry, Joe. Whether it's 'teeth' or 'striations' that we call 'fins' which are doing the job, they do appear to get a better foundation off the 4000 grit for me. I'm a pyramid man for sure.

X