Thread: Why Pyramid?

well. without all of the scientific knowledge and im not anyone to give advise. but my experience has been with the pyramid. i got 10 perfect shaves before i needed to re hone. i tried the pyramid then just kept polishing on the 8k. two shaves and both times the blade was struggling. so ill say the pyramid is what ill use.

I know those of you who think differently aren't going to like this, but I did the small pyramid and left it at that, no pastes followed

First of all The Thumb Test produced a wildly noticable tickling sensation with almost no biting or cutting feel at all. This was not the case with the wire edge or with a distempered blade I have. Clearly the sensation is not only because I have fingerprints, but also because the edge has texture.

The Hanging Hair Test sliced hairs almost effortlessly right up the blade, even worked with the wrong end sticking out over half the blade. The othr half still cut them, but with some effort.

Finally The Shave Test, and what a shave. after a week of scraping away with an incomplete edge it sure is nice to get a good shave in.

Conclusions: I don't want to read too much into this, but that to say that for wahtever reason, the pyramid is a super method for getting a great edge. I believe that is partially due to the deapth of texture which is created along the edge. I'm not saying that the 8000 side alone couldn't do it, but it's harder with that tool alone and possible that the edge would be better made using the 4000 in moderation.

Sorry, Joe. Whether it's 'teeth' or 'striations' that we call 'fins' which are doing the job, they do appear to get a better foundation off the 4000 grit for me. I'm a pyramid man for sure.

X

I'm the same, unfortunately I don't need any empirical evidence. I can actually feel a sharp unstriated blade desperately trying to "break" the whisker verses a striated blade cutting effortlessly. I can feel the difference with a striated blade moving down my face. Its not initially as smooth but that tempers out. I sometimes think stropping is aligning the fin and smoothing the edge. I doubt a pasted strop even needs to be stropped. I noticed this effect almost a year ago.

I'm going to keep experimenting (like I'll ever stop); but I propose a new pyramid, that being

3/1
2/1
1/1
1/2
1/3
Repeat
test shaving as you go
once a good shaving edge is created, then smooth out on 8K as desired
Thats the opposite of our current routine, but the 4K grit is the critical element in a shaving razor and the 8K is just there to smooth out the 4K to allow smooth shaving and stropping "finishes" the edge; daily.
These aren't new ideas, infact these are the ideas presented when I started, but reversing the pyramid or putting it upside down emphasis the importance of 4K and makes honing faster.

That Pyramid might be a good thing to try on a TI. I'd definitely say it is an Advanced Pyramid, not based on whether or not it's harder to achieve the edge, but because the Standard Pyramid let's a little more work be done by the smaller grit and that time is much better spent by a novice.

Has this been tried before?

It also looks like the end of a Pyramid. You go down, but you never went up. That seems like a real benefit to the Standard Pyramid for the same reasons mentioned above.

I often find myself, rather than thinking about how to change the Pyramid, but how changing the amount of pressure from the beginning of the Pyramid to the end? Your proposal might have merit in that argument because altering pressure is a challenge for me. Having a more agressive start to the methodology could reduce dependance on pressing which really shouldn't be necessary at all.

I still want to remain reluctant to support a more aggressive pattern, because I'm thinking that I might have been relying too much on the 4k and killing it with the pastes. I dunno.

X

Never been tried...didn't even bother thinking about it much. Just trying to get others to think about it. I can't even convince most people that a less sharp (and more striated) razor works. I think you have to use the correct pressure for each stroke, thats a given, but your right. This may help because less pressure is needed in general, which is always a good thing.

The only thing that I care about is that IM getting a good shave. I have no doubt that others are too. I like a super sharp blade on some razors, but I find them tedious to work with, take multiple passes, and are hard to maintain. And like I've said before, I can buy irritation anytime I want just across the street.

I think we all have a general idea about whether a blade is remotely sharp or not. I always thought it was a little silly to go 1/3 on a razor thats no where near ready for that. I mean, what exactly is the point of that? For me the point is simply to get the razor SHARP, and then smooth enough to test shave. So how many 8k passes do I need for that? I dunno. I'm thinking one. My other problem is I don't use a Norton, nor do I use 4/8 so I stay out of these conversations because I don't know the answer. I use low grit and mid grit and finish with a few fine passes if I think it needs it. I think its cool when you see how great just a med grit barber hone keeps a razor shaving nearly forever.

But I can feel the razor striations while shaving and I can tell when the blade is cutting whiskers. From there its easy honing.

I still think the perfect blade is a balance between the two factors. Good striations but a sharp smooth edge as well.

Say 4K until shaving sharp, 2 x 8k, 6 x .5 and done, but each blade is different. Thats what I normally shoot for, as few .5 passes as I can use IF I even bother. Usually .5 doesn't do anything for a razor in this area. Sharp razors need .5 to even begin to be useful, and then the razor striations start becoming ineffective.

Whats really cool is to attack it from the opposite direction. Get it really close to sharp and THEN ADD the striations with med grit.

Try it on another razor X, and see what you think, you'll be amazed. . .

Once you break past the paradigm that straights shave using striations and not just by being sharp the pyramid method makes so much sense it almost hurts...

The main thing is to do whatever works. I don't use the pyramid method at all and prefer the smallest, tightest, scratch patterns and, therefore, micro-serrations I can possibly get. Every razor has microserrations; it's just a matter of how fine they are. There's little point in using a steel with a super-fine granular structure if we actually want teeth on the blade and yet, the cryogenically treated steels tend to give superior edges and one of the characteristics of these steels treated cryogenically is the very fine and even distribution of carbides.

Japanse Feather blades are the sharpest things I'm aware of mankind ever making and I think they're outstanding double edge blades because of it. They shave effortlessly and the straight razors I like to shave with best shave almost as effortlessly and cleanly. I'll admit I don't get them that sharp, but I get them pretty close and that's always my goal. If my blade has to have teeth on it, I want them to be as small and fine as they can possibly be. At least that's how I feel about it now. Tomrrow... who knows.

You guys have been really busy while I was gone!

This has been a really great thread. Superfly, thanks for the links! The large PDF on Metallurgy will take me some time to read but will complement a book on steel hardening that I am reading (the book was written in 1913).

As usual this forum is the best!

Originally Posted by PapaBull

The main thing is to do whatever works. I don't use the pyramid method at all and prefer the smallest, tightest, scratch patterns and, therefore, micro-serrations I can possibly get. Every razor has microserrations; it's just a matter of how fine they are. There's little point in using a steel with a super-fine granular structure if we actually want teeth on the blade and yet, the cryogenically treated steels tend to give superior edges and one of the characteristics of these steels treated cryogenically is the very fine and even distribution of carbides.

Japanse Feather blades are the sharpest things I'm aware of mankind ever making and I think they're outstanding double edge blades because of it. They shave effortlessly and the straight razors I like to shave with best shave almost as effortlessly and cleanly. I'll admit I don't get them that sharp, but I get them pretty close and that's always my goal. If my blade has to have teeth on it, I want them to be as small and fine as they can possibly be. At least that's how I feel about it now. Tomrrow... who knows.

That's the only thing that makes sense theoretically, from history and from many years of barber science. I assure you that Lynn doesn't finish his razors with a coticule to leave 4K striations on it.

They guys that are finding improvement in using the pyramid are not finding it because they're leaving a rough edge. There is some explanation, but that's not it. The rough edge will last longer, but it won't shave better unless you're using a sliding/slicing motion like you do with a bread knife. The slight slice we use when we shave is not the same thing.

The shave is the ultimate test, but I find these pyramid results fascinating. The explanations don't cut it, and we won't understand what's going on or how we could put it to best use until it's figured out. If I had the time I would do tests and check the edge under a microscope so I could see what's going on. That could lead to some real understanding.

I do know one thing. I hone in one direction and I use maybe 1/4 or less of the strokes you use with your pyramids. I may have to touch up more often because my edges are finer and more fragile, but they're also sharper and shave better with less effort and less irritation. I have extremely sensitive skin and one thing I can't tolerate is irritation. For me that rules out a rough striated edge immediately.

BTW, traditional honing tells you that a rougher edge will be more durable, but the whole idea with razors is to go for the sharper edge because it doesn't have to be as durable. Razors have always been sharpened more finely than typical knives, and even you pyramid guys are doing it.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

I propose a new pyramid, that being

3/1
2/1
1/1
1/2
1/3

Well my shavers were beginning to slip a bit so I took them all to the hone (except the ones I got back from Lynn), even the Böker that I was playing with over the course of this thread since the tip was slightly sub-standard. The Böker jumped up very well almost instantly. The other 4 which were not responding very well to the standard pyramid, responded very well to this neew proposition. They responded even better when I started with a few pounds of pressure and gradually eased off to none. When I say 'responded' I'm referring to the hanging hair test. The shave test is the ultimate test so I'll have to let you know how they're really doing in a bit, but so far, I have to say it looks good.

X

I think you'll find the cutting abilities striking. The whiskers will be mowed down. But I think you'll find the blade may be a touch too "intense". You'll feel a little more irritation than usual. You can allow your face to adjust or find another method to smooth it out just a touch. More stropping (or just shave and strop as normal) or a few (and I strongly caution you against a higher number) passes on something finer then more stropping. Perhaps stropping with a tad of pressure. These are not fragile edges. I'd also like you to notice how long the edges last. Take note of that too please.


Let us know what you think . . .

Update: I've been honing some more today and am having great success on a 4/4 to 4/6 ratio.