Thread: Why Pyramid?

Originally Posted by threeputt

AF,

As to shaving with teeth, I cannot ...

Jeff

Zappa's great album cover, once posted by Corey Greenberg on his shaveblog...

Jeff, I will put away my scyte and torch this time. Sharpening razors is lost art, and we are all trying to do our best here. That teeth thing didn't make any sence for me either, so since it was written in the barber's manual from 60's and discussed here a lot, I started collecting microscope pics and I am still puzzled. The pyramid method, weeell, I am still using it a bit, but every now and then, and than with hesitation... I try to keep my razors sharp with just the 8000, and rarely when things don't look good under my 8x jeweler's loupe, I'll hit the 4000... The pyramid method was created on the first place to avoid overhoning on the edge. Varying between high and low grits, if there is a burr (or wire edge) forming on the 4K, the 8K side will take care about it. It was designed (I think) for honing dull razor, or very dull eboy special. On those edges, the bevel is often uneaven across the edge, and if using just the 4K, when sharpening one part of the edge, you might oversharpen another. That's why you alternate grits, and going to the finer grit, you remove burr from the lower. Just like in knife sharpening, you don't go to the finer grits, untill you raise burr on the lower...

Now, there was a GREAT article link, for a large pdf document posted over at the yahoo forum. The document is called "Experiments on Knife Sharpening" and it's written by:

John D. Verhoeven
Emeritus Professor
Department of Materials Science and Engineering
Iowa State University
Ames, IA

It adresses the techniques of sharpening any edge, including straight razor's, and using SEM (scaning electrone microscope) pics up to 10,000x magnification (it's not a typo) is a must read for sharpening geeks... On ocasion, they are measuring the edges of an (expertly) honed straight razor and fresh gillete blade, and they look almost identical, with the very cuting edge thickness of about 0.35~0.4 microns...
I tryed uploading it here last night, but with no success... I think it was downloaded directly from the Department of Materials Science and Engineering, Iowa State University web site...

have fun,
Nenad

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Or you could assume that you have the ability to create a perfect bevel on the 4K. Then just a few strokes on the 8K should take care of it. If it doesn't just keep at it for a while, and then just keep at it a while longer, and if that fails, why what the heck just keep at it a while longer, night after night. In fact, why don't you go ahead and make a pact with yourself now, that you'll run your next razor 1 pass over a 4K hone and never touch it again and only hone on 8K for the rest of your life. . .now doesn't that sound a little odd too?

Alan, if your razor is not suffering from mishaps, dings or other nasty things that can happen on the edge, you can maintain perfect edge with just couple of swipes on the 8000 side forever. There is no need to go to the 4000 for basic honing needs. Lynn advice couple of light 1/3 strokes to maintain a shaving-sharp razor, but that scheme is created for saving time. The same can be achieved with maybe 10-15 passes on the 8000. Ray (classicshaving) has also adviced me that you can maintain the razor with just the 8000, and keep the 4000 for serious work...

Nenad

Originally Posted by superfly

Alan, if your razor is not suffering from mishaps, dings or other nasty things that can happen on the edge, you can maintain perfect edge with just couple of swipes on the 8000 side forever. There is no need to go to the 4000 for basic honing needs. Lynn advice couple of light 1/3 strokes to maintain a shaving-sharp razor, but that scheme is created for saving time. The same can be achieved with maybe 10-15 passes on the 8000. Ray (classicshaving) has also adviced me that you can maintain the razor with just the 8000, and keep the 4000 for serious work...

Nenad

Yes, I agree. I am only referring to honing a dull razor. . .thank you

Jeff,

No lynch mob starting up over at your house. I'll tell you the little I understand about the process just to finish out. I find the Norton 4k/8k won't do the job. 4K is too rough and 8K may be too smooth, but 8k may work. Its close. What I use is the carborundum 103 for the technique. Its somewhere in the mid/fine barber hone area. Where, I don't know. But here is what I do. I start with the blade in a perfect honing position, angled heal leading and use a back and forth motion, keeping the same angle and literally try and scratch the striations into the blade (no need for heavy pressure though, just light pressure), then flip it over and repeat. You can not change the angle or slide the blade against the direction of where the needed striation are required for even one stroke! This back and forth movement ensures the blade is sharp, but not ultra sharp and not overhoned. I usually begin test shaving from there. I'll run a typical x pattern just like it says in the barber manual if its needed, but I won't go beyond the stone itself, there isn't any need. No .1 paste, or .5 paste, or .25 paste. Sometimes not even one extra stroke is needed. Now, its pretty sharp, its in the 8K (my current guess is its actually in the 6K area) area I'm pretty sure. So I'm not claiming its actually dull, but it shaves and shaves nicely. You can feel it cutting, its not like a pulling, its like you put a little motor into the sucker....ok not quite that good. It shaves a lot better than if you just honed it mindlessly to 8k and tried to shave. I've never experienced a good 8k shave to be honest with you, despite Ray telling Nenad I should. I have a thick beard everywhere though. But I have on occasion created a blade the feels different, smooth, not so sharp, and shaves effortlessly. Its really cool.

I can assume that everyone will think I'm crazy, but I still believe that before the advent of injection molded blade development that striations were put onto straight razors with a purpose. I'm not saying this type of honing is the cat's pajamas, just that striations have benefit. If I can hone up one of these old Ebay specials I have lying around with this method I'll mail it to you. I need some more time experimenting though because I'm working alone here. :-)

Wait, I hear the natives assembling outside MY house . . .

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

Jeff,

I've never experienced a good 8k shave to be honest with you, despite Ray telling Nenad I should. I have a thick beard everywhere though.

Wait, I hear the natives assembling outside MY house . . .

I am using only Norton 4/8K stone for maintainance for this past year, and my razors shave fine. I, like you, have heavy beard. Also, the 8000 grit japanese whetstone only is recomended for maintainance on nassrasur.com. My Itsapeech barber finishing hone is on hold until I lap it to my satisfaction. I am pritty close, but this thing goes trough 1000 grit sandpaper like nobody's business... I will post my progress with it when I start using it...

hm... should we stone or burn him

naah, that's why the forums are, to teach and learn...

have fun,
Nenad

Originally Posted by threeputt

I don't understand what X means by "overpolishing" an edge at 8k. I take my edges all the way to .25 micron paste. They shave (me) wonderfully.

I use the 0.25 as well. In fact I follow the 8k with about 6 laps on the 12k followed by the 0.5 mocron stick and finally about 10 - 20 passes on the 0.25. I have just experienced that too much honing on the higher grits can over smooth or perhaps round the edge beyond the point of a good shaving edge. I don't use a microscope, but I am continually doing the thumb test and the hanging hair test and both of these tests as well as the shave provide feedback to me which reaffirms my conclusions.

I look at it this way;
Some serrated knives have large teeth like this; AAAAAAA
Other serrated knives have smaller teeth like this;^^^^^^
Some have small teeth and larger teeth intermixed, like this;A^^A^^A^^A^^A^^A^^
Moving up in grits adds smaller teeth to the larger ones, like this;A''^''^''A''^''^''A''^''^''A
This is the best shaving edge I can make. To overdo it on the higher grits only leaves behind the smaller teeth like these;'''''''''''' which can be too small and get bunched up in the hairs thus shaving less effectively. The combination of some deeper grooves and some shallower ones seems to provide the sublime edge.

Each man's beard is different, so differences will occur, but that's the experience I have while honing.

X

This has been an awesome thread!

Why a pyramid? I use the pyramid because I have found that due to the delicate nature of the straight razor blade, it is more consistent to work at the edge on the incrimental basis utilized in the pyramid method. No science. Just a simple comparison of honing all at once, testing, honing all at once again and testing v. honing with the pyramid and then testing. The pyramid continues to be the winner for me. Much the same as using the X stroke vs. the paint brush method of honing. The interesting thing is how much the pyramid can vary. Beacuse each razor has a different personality and steels can be anywhere in between hard and soft, there are many variations that work. Nothing I have tried works the same every time on every razor.

For years, I just used the Norton 4K/8K with great results. Then I found out about the red and green pastes and had even better luck with them. Then the diamond pastes. Then the Coticule. Again nothing ever works every time on every razor. I lately have gotten away from the pastes as I have found them to be dulling after using the Coticule. 20 strokes, 30, 40, 60, who knows, but great discussion here. The main thing I have found is that you need to have your razor shaving sharp from the hone before pasting. The pastes add that little extra smoooooth that we all seek. Yeah, I think barber hones still suck. They are small, flat, unpredictable, and harder to use for me. There are those of you who love them. Oh well..........

I also have a microscope. I don't use it all the time as I have not found the perfect method of prediction of the perfect shave or hone job yet. I do judge the sharpness of a razor by the shave. That will always be my ultimate test. I do like to look at the edge under a microscope now and then, particularly on a tough razor to see if I can tell why it's so tough.

The best part of all this is that just a few years ago, there wasn't all this. It is very cool that we are developing a million ways to get at the prize and I hope it keeps up forever. I remember what it felt like to shave with the first razor I honed, the 50th, the first hundred, the first thousand and so on. It is still a turn on to find out which razors hone and shave consistently better than others. It's even more fun with all the input of our members who are at various stages of wisdom. It's even more fun to watch every new guy come in, ask the same questions and then after a while start imparting what they have learned to others.

Thanks guys.

Lynn

I've been intrigued and in agreement with Alan (aka AFDavis11) since his post on duller edge results in smoother shave. I too have a tough beard and sensitive skin so smoothness is primary to me. I can't shave with an edge finished with .25 micron. My skin won't tolerate it. I can't even go cross grain and usually do 2 passes with the grain.

So today I decided to follow through and do something totally off the beaten path. I took my W&B which was already shave ready but not smooth and did 3 backhoning laps on 4k! Followed by 50 on 1 micron paste and 30 on .5 and plain hanging strop for 40.

I shaved 5 days worth of growth. The shave was not super smooth but smoother than this blade used to give me and no irritation at all. I also had an amazing first pass. I did not need a second pass and most areas did not need to be touched up either.

Even on my chin, where most razors get noticeably bogged down with 2 days growth, I found this one plowing through 5 days worth with no irritation afterwards, none at all. I would have expected the razor to be dull but it was not. I even tried going against the grain on my neck as the first pass, again no irritation and a clean first pass.

I decided to backhone after Allan noted that it is the pasted strop with 3 micron that is needed and not a stone of the same grit (8k). Together with Jeff's (aka Threeput) explanation that the rough grit will chip away some of the edge when it gets caught on large grit particles during honing, made me think that backhoning will add the serations without micro-chipping the edge.

The pastes afterwards polish the serations. The pastes are too fine to remove 4k striations so only smooth over the egdes, effectively sharpening them.

I am also thinking that light pressure on a loose hanging strop will dull the edge but if you have serations and can do it so lightly that only the tips of the serations are dulled not the sides then you will get a smoother shave. The tips won't catch on the skin and remove too much of it, while stubble will be cut through by the sharp wedges formed between serations. I am only guessing since this would require a 4000x to 10000x microscope to verify.

At the moment all my razors are in the "to be honed" state. None of them compare to the smoothness of the W&B blade in the violin that Bill purchased. Previously I thought that the Pierre Thiers collectible and the violin were at par but Monday I touched up the voilin blade and test shaved a cheek before disinfecting, oiling the blade and shipping it to Bill (you didn't expect me to just ship it without fretting over it did you ? I was more nervous touching up this one than when I was learning to hone on my brand new TI).

I finished the shave with the next razor in my rotation which happened to be P.T. collectible. In a same shave comparison the voilin (W&B Gentleman's Razor) beat PTC hands down on smoothness. Previously I only compared the shaves from day to day and relied on memory for the comparison. They both seemed equally smooth.

Afterwards I shifted all my razors to the to be honed section of the shelf and decided that I have to get them all that smooth or I won't be happy. Haven't gotten around to it until today and did not feel like shaving with any of them until I tried to improve their smoothness. Hence the 5 days growth.

So I am now going to experiment and see if I can attain that super smooth shave and make it repeatable. I will try again but this time backhone a shave ready blade on 8k not 4k, followed by pastes to see if this improves the smoothness.

I think the pastes will work better than a stone because the goal is to sharpen the serations and paste on leather has a better chance of getting into the crevases than grit on a flat hard stone.

I'll keep on trying until I get that super smooth shave on a regular basis. I would use Alan's method but want to find another route to the same results to prove that his results are not a fluke but have a logical explanation since now there will be more than one way to attain them.

I must say that I got alot more than I bargained for with this thread! It seems there are quite a few ideas and techniques when it comes to staying sharp. All of it will keep me busy for weeks if not months! Being new to str8 shaving I have not alot to contribute yet, but as Ray put it, eventually I hope to be able to give back. It is one of the most facinating little indulgences that I have, and this site feeds the fire for sure.

Cheers!
Emil

Vlad, thank god! Its an amazing shave isn't it? I started a new thread on this. The razor IS dull, but it shaves great...neat huh?

Emil, I'm pretty new too, someday I hope to be able to contribute as well, just keep having fun and we'll both get there.

Lynn, thanx for chiming in. Its always great to have your wisdom thrown in. I still want to make a trip up to visit sometime, if I don't use barber hones too much for ya? :-)