Thread: My first honing on coticule

Originally Posted by Lynn

I certainly agree with the personal preference Bart. It would really help if you had more experience with other stones from a comparison standpoint.

That is a correct remark. I do not own a collection of different honing setups, that's why I will usually refrain from any advice at "which hones do I need to buy" questions. I do own a Chosera 5K and 10K, of which I get excellent results. I also own a Nakayama from Oldschool, that never quite lived up to the high expectations I had for it, until I recently played around with the approach that JimR learned from his barber. From what I read, the Japanese Naturals come in a pretty wide range, so I have no idea if my successes with JimR's method translate to many or few Japanese hones. I've also played with lapping film and with the Dovo pastes.
So far, I've found the results of the Chosera 10K and those of the lapping film (while it lasted for doing tests) to be keener than that of a Coticule, but also keener on blemishing my skin, which probably is as much a matter of technique as a matter of preference and personal skin condition.
The edge I can get of the Nakayama is very good. It adds hint of glide to the shave that resembles that of CrO. Very nice. If I wasn't so passionate about Coticules, I would go for that. Yet when it comes to forgiveness, with my skin, my shaving technique, I still prefer my Coticule edges. It's probably more habit than anything else.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I cannot find an old wedge with uneven hone wear which is different on both sides that I can get a decent bevel on in 15 minutes. I can't get a bevel started on most in this condition in 15 minutes even with a 220 grit stone.

I think we had a misunderstanding in another thread. Of course I can't cut a bevel from scratch in 15 minutes on a Coticule. I wouldn't even think of trying. I only claim that on a razor that dulled from regular use to the point a touch-up no longer restores the initial shaving performance, it's not too difficult to start out on a Coticule. That is the vast majority of honing jobs I do for other people.
I claim that the speed of Coticules with slurry vary somewhere between that of 1K and 4K. 1K being only the very fastest specimen. 4K being the slowest. I base myself on comparison with my DMT-E and the Chosera 5K. Also on testimony of men like Gary, who have more hones to compare to.

Originally Posted by Lynn

Great that you are having these kind of results. I find your method works best when there is minimal flattening on the spine and will work with some flattening, but again 15 minutes is not something anyone can do and particularly not a new person.

I have shared a Youtube video a while ago, with an unedited shot of me honing a Henckels on a (fairly fast) Coticule. The video shows the entire procedure, it lasts a bit over 8 minutes. I wasn't rushing, but will generally do a bit more testing. It is true that it would take someone inexperienced much longer to do the same. It used to take me an hour to hone a razor, often longer.

Originally Posted by Lynn

The method itself in my opinion is very cool. I also find that I need to tinker with the finish on many razors still when finishing using your method with a Coticule. I am also glad that I own a few Coticules and they are fun to play with.

Yes I have exactly the same experience. I have a bit of an arsenal of slight finishing variations on a Coticule, and at times, when my normal 30-50 laps on water fails to deliver that final bit of performance, it's fun to try what will work.

Originally Posted by Lynn

I admire your undying passion and love for the Coticules and again believe they are a very nice stone. I also believe there are better stones both Natural and Synthetic and look forward to discovering more great stones in the future as I look forward to additional methodologies and discoveries from you.

Thank you, I believe we needed to touch base on these "Coticule matters". I know you believe there are better hones. If there's anyone in the world entitled to an educated opinion about quality of hones, it is you, who have such vast experience with razors and hones. I for one could certainly not object to it. I have only been aiming to get the most out of the Belgian hones, and helping out people who have chosen to take that route. I'm currently doing more experimentation on the BBW than on Coticules. That doesn't mean I suddenly started to think they're the nicest hones on the planet.

Kind regards,
Bart.

What the heck did I start? LOL.

Seriously this has turned into a very good post. I agree, very good advice from all spectrums here.

ChrisL, post pics. I don't care at all.

On the coticule thing..it seems to me, and I may be wrong, that really one coticule may not cut it. You will find one you like better for finishing, one better for bevel setting, etc.

Okay, so forgive my ignorance but what the heck is polishing exactly? Is it literally polishing in the sense it makes something shiny? I don't understand.

To whoever that offered me a razor to practice with. I have but one now and when I get myself back to work and get some synthetics I may take you up on this. Thank you for the offer.

That said, I see the Norton set on Amazon for $120.
- Do you need the Norton slurry stone? I've never read of anyone using slurry on a Norton, but I see the stone for sale.

- I am thinking I will need them lapped. How often do they need to be lapped? Is there anyone that offers this service? I don't feel real comfortable doing it myself and I would like to eliminate any negative variable that I could.

Thank you all very much. Until I get other stones I'm going to use the coticule I do have and keep practicing my stroke. Going to try to find videos and more information and practice the different types of strokes, but mainly just get comfortable with the x stroke.

I am going to stick my neck out here a bit. As a new guy who has only been at this about 2 years all I can say is that for someone to use a Coticule to set a bevel you have to be damn good at honing. I think that the skill necessary would surpass most beginners. Bart, Glen, and Lynn are just, plain and simple, legends at this honing game. I could set a bevel with a Coticule but it would use up more time and patience than I have right now.

Speaking only for me! I love my Coticule but it is only one hone in my normal progression. I consider my Coticule about 4K with slurry and 12K with just water. By the time I use my Coticule my bevel is set and able to cut hair readily on my arm. The reason that I use a Coticule is because of the feedback that I get from it and when I am done the edge is very smooth and uniform...and I can both hear and feel that in the stone better than any stone that I have. I then go up, or is it down?, the progression to a 10K, 16K, and then to the 30K before I go to the pastes. My end results are excellent and worth the effort but the time invested is minimal so that I can shave, not hone.


Take care,
Richard

Originally Posted by riooso

I am going to stick my neck out here a bit. As a new guy who has only been at this about 2 years all I can say is that for someone to use a Coticule to set a bevel you have to be damn good at honing. I think that the skill necessary would surpass most beginners. Bart, Glen, and Lynn are just, plain and simple, legends at this honing game. I could set a bevel with a Coticule but it would use up more time and patience than I have right now.

Speaking only for me! I love my Coticule but it is only one hone in my normal progression. I consider my Coticule about 4K with slurry and 12K with just water. By the time I use my Coticule my bevel is set and able to cut hair readily on my arm. The reason that I use a Coticule is because of the feedback that I get from it and when I am done the edge is very smooth and uniform...and I can both hear and feel that in the stone better than any stone that I have. I then go up, or is it down?, the progression to a 10K, 16K, and then to the 30K before I go to the pastes. My end results are excellent and worth the effort but the time invested is minimal so that I can shave, not hone.


Take care,
Richard

I totaly agree there fun hones to use. thats the reason i got to like then so much. I was determined to work then out. With barts help i did and in the end it was well worth it.

Originally Posted by rickboone

Okay, so forgive my ignorance but what the heck is polishing exactly? Is it literally polishing in the sense it makes something shiny? I don't understand.

Polishing is when you're merely just removing the scratch pattern of the early hones and polishing it out so the edge is sharp but no longer harsh to the skin.
An edge should be shave ready off the 8k but when you move on after that you're just polishing the bevel so the edge shaves still very well but it won't grip your skin and bite as much.

The nortong always need lapping when you buy them new. I would also get a DMT d8c 325 grit plate to lap your stones, it's a very good investment and can also be used to remove chips on razors and restore, etc. Nortons need to be lapped often as they get dirty quickly from removed metal. You will also need to round the sides and corners of the Norton when you get them when lapping them flat, this way the blade doesn't catch on the sides or corners.

Whenever you get a hone in the mail, unless the seller lapped it for you, should be lapped when you get it anyway. Lapping can be found in the wiki. It is actually very easy to do and I wouldn't be too scared of it, it's easier than honing a razor.

I'm a coticule owner and learned how to use one as well with the help of SRP and Bart in particular. All I will add to this thread is this: A lot can be said for learning how to hone (and gaining expertise) with the hones YOU HAVE, as opposed to buying several types, if not entire sets, of different hones. At the learning stage collecting vast sums of hones is not the answer to all a newb's problems; you will not be able to assess a hones position in a progression until you master the ones YOU own

And besides, some people actually enjoy a challenge .

Originally Posted by Disburden

Polishing is when you're merely just removing the scratch pattern of the early hones and polishing it out so the edge is sharp but no longer harsh to the skin.
An edge should be shave ready off the 8k but when you move on after that you're just polishing the bevel so the edge shaves still very well but it won't grip your skin and bite as much.

The nortong always need lapping when you buy them new. I would also get a DMT d8c 325 grit plate to lap your stones, it's a very good investment and can also be used to remove chips on razors and restore, etc. Nortons need to be lapped often as they get dirty quickly from removed metal. You will also need to round the sides and corners of the Norton when you get them when lapping them flat, this way the blade doesn't catch on the sides or corners.

Whenever you get a hone in the mail, unless the seller lapped it for you, should be lapped when you get it anyway. Lapping can be found in the wiki. It is actually very easy to do and I wouldn't be too scared of it, it's easier than honing a razor.

So...up to the 8 K is washing the car and putting a coat of wax on it. Up from that, you're buffing it with the power buffer.

Is a polishing stone and finishing stone one in the same? I know I am asking questions now that have been asked 783492 times and have articles written about them. I am sorry.

You might want to read through this....


Some thoughts on honing razors..

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Aspiring honers are often not clear about what they are trying to accomplish when it comes to honing razors. In particular, they are often unsure of what they are doing and how often they should be doing it. Some questions you might want to answer for yourself before you start buying hones:

■ Are you an "end-user"; someone who only hones a previously shave-ready blade back to shave-ready?
■ Are you a hobbyist who is chasing the absolute finest edge that may be obtained where money is no object?
■ Are you a frugal shaver who is after the cheapest way to complete your morning shave?
■ Are you a collector who needs to take E-bay specials from butt-ugly to shave-ready?
■ Are you a Honemiester; someone who gets paid to do all of these things for others?
■ Are you a razor restorer who needs to take damaged blades and bring them back to life and shave-readiness?

Each of these types of honer profiles have different requirements for the stones they will own. Theoretically, you can survive using the "one stone" approach, but each razor does have an optimum stone set - and more importantly, a technique for using the required hones. So generally, when somebody asks what stone or how to use what stone, the question to ask them is: "What are you trying to accomplish with the stone(S)?"

Refreshing vs. Starting from Scratch:

The types of hones required depends first and foremost on the type of honing you want to do.

Hones needed for refreshing a dull blade:

If the only task you want to perform is refreshing edges that have previously been established by a Honemiester (the process is often referred to as "touching up"), you need only get a fine grit finishing stone or a barber's hone for this. Either of these hones can be used to keep your razor(s) shave-ready for years.

Hones needed for restoring razors:

If you want to set a bevel, or have many different types of razors, you will need a full set of hones.


A bevel setting stone approximately 1k

DMT's 325 600 1200, Shapton 500, 1K and 2K, Coticules with slurry, Norton 1k, Naniwa 1k

A sharpening stone approximately 4k

Norton 4K, Shapton 4K Naniwa 3k or 5k, Belgian Blue with slurry

A polishing stone approximately 8k

Norton 8k, Shapton 8k, Naniwa 8k, Yellow Coticule

A finishing stone 10k and above (this is often subject to debate, however)

Shapton GS 16k-30k Shapton 15k Naniwa SS 10k-12k or Chosera 12k, Thuringens, Escher's, Many different natural Japanese finishers, Charlney Forest, Extra Fine Coticule, even some of the Arkansas stones...

You have several choices of how to accomplish this setup whether you use natural, man-made stone, or a Diamond-style stone, but you are going to have to be able to cover those 4 grit ranges. There really is no true shortcut here if you expect to take razors acquired in need of restoration from butter knife dull (or damaged) to shaving sharp: You are going to end up needing these types of stones. This can also be accomplished with the judicious use of a slurry but essentially you are still going through these grit stages...


Pastes can be used after the hones and before the final stropping also these can be used for re-freshing the edge before going back to the hones for a touch-up...

A few different types

Dovo Pastes:

Green 5-8 micron
Red 3-5 micron
Black 1-3 micron
Dovo pastes are a much more mild cutter then say a diamond paste of the same micron size...

Diamond Paste:

From 3 micron down to actually .10 micron if you really wanted to...
These pastes are fast and many people use them incorrectly and manage too get a harsh edge, when used correctly and on the right razor steel these will most likely be the sharpest edge you will ever feel...

Diamond sprays:

Mostly found in 1.0 .50 and .25 micron watch the Carat content here, the higher the better (SRD has the best I have found and yes Lynn and Don are friends of mine, but heck it is still the best spray I have found)

Chromium Oxide Paste/Powder .50 micron (CrOx)
Probably the most universal of the pastes, get the most pure you can find, and no the bars at Woodcrafters are not pure...

Cerium Oxide Paste/Powder (approx).25 micron (CeOx)

Super fine, super soft, and super smooth, polishing media...The bar at Woodcrafter's is of unknown quality at this time

Other Pastes and Powders:

Iron Oxide
Aluminum Oxide

Both of these can also be used again be very careful when buying this stuff as the purity and the micron sizes are very important...

Carbon blacking/lamp black:

This might be the oldest of all the sharpening "pastes" when used on a leather strop it increases draw

Wood Ash:

Another old fashioned one very slightly abrasive when used on Linen strops and Leather strops..

White chalk:

Can be rubbed on a linen strop to increase the abrasive qualities

Newspaper:

The ink itself is a very fine abrasive and so is the paper..

Keep in mind that different razor steels like/dislike different pastes, and the different media that is used to apply it including Balsa, Linen, Leather (paddle) Leather (hanger) and Felt paddle and hanger all give different results on different razor steels....


The above are only my personal opinions and observations... There are no set rules in Razordom...


PS: I did not include Flims as I do not have much knowledge in their use... There are also many other stones that could fit in here But again I haven't even used them once let alone have true knowledge of them so I did not include them