Thread: Recommendations on Friodur with a coticle?

Originally Posted by randydance062449

The 7/8 Friodur's are a fickle, difficult to hone razor. IMHO, the spine is not thick enough to give a proper angle to the bevel for that width of blade.
My solution has been to apply 2 layers of black electrical tape on the spine. This increases the angle and makes for easier honing via a bevel with a smaller width. Hope this makes sense.

Just my $.02,

That's very interesting, Randy. I've never encountered that kind of problem with those razors, but I've only honed 3 of them. Thanks for the heads up.

I got one from Telly from NY a couple of years ago. A 7/8 vintage in great shape and scary sharp. I asked him what he honed it with and he said that it came from a guy in Japan and he didn't know. When it finally needed a bit of TLC I put it on the 15k shapton pro followed by the 30k shapton pro. Back to scary sharp. I wouldn't have thought to use a coticule on it. For stainless I like to use synthetics but I admit I haven't tired naturals with them.

The garnets are harder than stainless steel and have no problem cutting and polishing the bevel to a shave ready sharpness. The BBW (blue belgian 4k) would precede the use of the yellow coticule 8k as it's a coarser stone than the coticule. See whether or not a slurry or just water on the coticule will give you a better edge. Steel type and heat treatment are different for every razor and a little experimentation will inform your shaving.

Hey Howard, long time since you've posted. Good to see you back around.

Originally Posted by Ryan82

I believe his response was that it truly doesn't matter as long as the razor passes YOUR shave test. .....BTW, and FWIW - I have had many pro-honed razors that will not pass the HHT or cut floating arm hairs before being stropped. Doesn't necessarily mean your razor isn't shave ready

Absolutely - I agree. I don't mean to sound hung up on the HHT because I'm really not. I am only impressed by the shave quality, an fortunately at this point in my shaving career, I have come to know what a good shave/edge feels like. And the razors that I referred to previously were indeed shave ready. I guess I just have fine hair or something...

Originally Posted by randydance062449

The 7/8 Friodur's are a fickle, difficult to hone razor. IMHO, the spine is not thick enough to give a proper angle to the bevel for that width of blade.
My solution has been to apply 2 layers of black electrical tape on the spine. This increases the angle and makes for easier honing via a bevel with a smaller width. Hope this makes sense.
Just my $.02,

Thanks - this was interesting and useful information. I checked the spine thickness:razor width on this Friodur and it was 3.75, which may be ~kind of low as you indicate. In any event, I chose to go with one layer of tape, in part because I want to preserve this razor through all of this.

Originally Posted by Howard

The garnets are harder than stainless steel and have no problem cutting and polishing the bevel to a shave ready sharpness. The BBW (blue belgian 4k) would precede the use of the yellow coticule 8k as it's a coarser stone than the coticule. See whether or not a slurry or just water on the coticule will give you a better edge. Steel type and heat treatment are different for every razor and a little experimentation will inform your shaving.

Hey Howard - Am I correct in assuming that you're talking about BBW preceeding coti with no slurry involved. Given that the coti w/slurry has been used to set and refine a bevel, I'm wondering if the BBW fits in with the slurry method? I'm not sure which is more aggressive: BBW or coti/slurry (or where BBW/slurry fits in)?

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In any event, here's what I was up to last night:

1) Magic marker test on the existing edge: 2-3 laps on the BBW and it took off all the ink evenly and completely. Shaves arm hair OK. So far, so good; however, I decided to go for one layer of tape and the Dilucot method.

2) After going through the coti w/thicker slurry part, I could see a double bevel taking shape pretty well. The new edge looked pretty good - still OK with the MM, and it did cut arm hair decently.

3) Continued diluting the slurry following Bart's procedure until I was at coti/water. The response of the coticle through the various levels of dilution is pretty amazing. Then 10 laps on a barber hone followed by 10 on Cr2O3/balsa, then stropped on canvas and leather.

I could probably get a shave out of this thing now, but it still needs work. I'm not sure I can get there with just the coti/water and stropping (but I don't know for sure....).

I guess these are my options:

- Re-do the Dilucot method and continue to try to re-set or improve the bevel,
- Continue to try to finish the edge with the coti/water and possibly a higher grit stone,
- Drop back and punt (get a 1K Naniwa, bring it up through the BBW and coti with water, and get some higher grit stone to finish it off),

If I stick with re-doing the Dilucot, should I continue with the compound bevel or keep honing until it replaces the original?

I realize that you all don't have much to go on without seeing what I'm actually working with. I am also coming to appreciate that evaluating what needs to be done and making the (a) correct decision is a large part of learning to hone, but any thoughts that you may have would be appreciated.

Any idears?
Thanks much.

Finishing off on a Coticule can be tricky,,,especially if you want "sharper"...
Coticules by their very nature are self limiting, in fact most people say you can't overhone on them, but that is a double edge sword, because it also isn't as easy to tweak the edge to scary sharp...

As you hone on a Coticule, (especially one that is capable of generating a heavy slurry to do the bevel set), you are creating slurry, with even just the razor and water.. So to overcome to effect of the slurry you need to rinse with every 3rd lap or so... I set my honing tray next to a full sink normally, and do 3 laps dip the razor, 3 laps dip the razor, until I get the edge I want...
To be perfectly honest though, I would never use the Coticule on a Friodur anyway, I only use mine on heavy Sheffield wedges...
But this is the technique I use to get the most out of it...
YMMV of course..

At this point I would want to know what the results are so far. I would perform an arm hair test and a hht then I would strop it for 50 laps and give it a test shave. From that you will start developing a knowledge of what results a given procedure produces.

You do not have to do a full face shave. The first few strokes will answer your questions.

Just my $.02,

I've finished a Fridour on synthetics and finished on Asagi. I had no problems with bevel reset and the smoothness to me was same as #13 Double Temple.
@ OP.
If you can get your hands on some synthetic hones give them a try and see if you can get better results with bevel setting and and further.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

...As you hone on a Coticule, (especially one that is capable of generating a heavy slurry to do the bevel set), you are creating slurry, with even just the razor and water.. So to overcome to effect of the slurry you need to rinse with every 3rd lap or so... I set my honing tray next to a full sink normally, and do 3 laps dip the razor, 3 laps dip the razor, until I get the edge I want...

I see what you mean about making sure the coti is optimized for clean water, etc.

Originally Posted by randydance062449

At this point I would want to know what the results are so far. I would perform an arm hair test and a hht then I would strop it for 50 laps and give it a test shave. From that you will start developing a knowledge of what results a given procedure produces.

You do not have to do a full face shave. The first few strokes will answer your questions. Just my $.02,

Ah Ha! You read my mind! I just did do a full face shave and it was not bad at all. There was some pull - not bad, though - but it was more than decent with just WTG and XTG. The razor definately needs some more work, but I'm at least barking up the right tree (or, I haven't flopped it up yet, to put it another way...). I'm starting to get a more tactile sense of which procedures have what effects, as you say. Need more practise...

Originally Posted by mainaman

I've finished a Fridour on synthetics and finished on Asagi. I had no problems with bevel reset and the smoothness to me was same as #13 Double Temple.
@ OP.
If you can get your hands on some synthetic hones give them a try and see if you can get better results with bevel setting and and further.

Well Stefan. I would love to do that. How about if I come right down to Blacksburg this weekend if you'll let me check yours out. Funny, I was actually thinking of coming down there this weekend to see old friends and to ride in this big sponsored bike ride that they have every year at this time. Unfortunately, cannot do it this time....

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So - please indulge me with one more question:
The razor needs more work, but does it make sense to try to reset the bevel or try to finish the edge with what I've got (or can get my hands on)? I'm inclined to do the former to try to get that as good as I can. Recall that there is a compound bevel on there now from resetting after taping.

Thanks once again for your thoughts, guys. Very helpful.

I would stay with what you have and try to refine the edge more by using the coti with water only and trying Gssixgun's approach of rinsing frequently.
Your almost home so why go back to first base?