Thread: Questions about flatness...

After lapping my Norton 4/8k and chinese 12k I came to realize that my razors edge did not sit completly flat against the hone. I set about trying to hone untill it did lay flat and after countless strokes and increasingly coarse stones, I am beginnig to wonder if it is going to happen at all--or if it even needs to. Have I done wrong by my poor little razor?

They don't always grind them to sit flat on the hone. OTOH, sometimes previous wear will preclude sitting flat. Here is a tutorial with illustrations from the 1961 barber manual that will be helpful in your understanding a good method for dealing with this situation. If you could post a photo of the blade that would be helpful in diagnosing the problem as well.

Jimmy already said . you may have warped blade too. gl

In what way does the razor not sit flat. It could be warped, as Sham says, or is it just a smiling razor? For a warped razor, on one side the toe and heal only will touch the hone, on the other side only the middle will touch the hone. For a smiling razor, the middle will touch but the toe and heal won't - this will be the same on both sides.

Either way, the razor can be honed without re-flattening the razor. I find warps don't affect shaving at all, and smiles can actually shave more comfortably than a straight edge.

Originally Posted by jds627

After lapping my Norton 4/8k and chinese 12k I came to realize that my razors edge did not sit completly flat against the hone. I set about trying to hone untill it did lay flat and after countless strokes and increasingly coarse stones, I am beginnig to wonder if it is going to happen at all--or if it even needs to. Have I done wrong by my poor little razor?

As the others have stated, it's probably your razor. If your hone is lapped properly, (you drew the gridlines, lapped them off, ensuring it's flat) then it has to be the razor. You can check your hone with a straight edge.

My first Robeson Suredge was great, spine flat on stone, Check. Edge flat on stone, Check... Even # of strokes later... Hone ware on spine even, Check... Hone ware on edge even... WTF???

It's blade is not ground straight down, it has a slight lean to the side and no ammount of corrective honing will make the bevels even... So I have a 10/90 bevel on that razor and it shaves just fine

Here are some pictures that show the bevels/grinds on the blade and spine. Sorry about the textbook background, I'm supposed to be doing my homework.

IMO, it's tough to say because there is so much hone wear put onto the razor AND, given that you are a new honer (unless I'm misunderstanding something), one couldn't say 100% if it's all due to the razor or if your honing technique is a factor.

That said, the pattern of heavy wear on the toe and heal on one side compared to heavy wear in the middle of the other side suggests to me that it may be an uneven grind or warping.

Also, at this stage, I'd say that if you haven't set the bevel, you should send the razor out for honing or put her aside until you are ready to learn how to get a razor like this shave ready without putting even more wear onto the razor.

If the blade is warped, should I just try to hone and use it as it is? Is it critical that the entire edge contacts the hone at the same time or will an x-pattern be sufficient to hone it? I knew that I was making way more strokes than is ordinarily necessary and that there is now considerable wear, but it seemed like I was getting closer to 100% edge contact.

BTW, I bought this razor to learn with, knowing that it might take some abuse.

Well, you may or may not be able to "grind it down" to get flat contact on both sides, but I would not recommend that (I would actually recommend against it).

A razor with a warp or uneven grind can be honed without putting any more wear than you would any other razor, but each side must be approached differently. For the side that is wearing only in the middle, a normal roling X will work. For the other side, you need to hone off the edge of your hone, using the edge of the hone to hone in the concave of the curve. At least, that is how I do it.

Here is something that may help you visualize what I'm talking about - hold your right hand in front of you, make a fist palm down an then point out away from you with your index finger. This will represent your razor, with your fingernail representing the toe of your razor. Now, set your finger on the edge of a table, such that the bottom of your finger lies flat on the table. This is an example of a flat razor resting on a hone. but your razor does not sit flat. To see what your razor is like, bend your finger a bit to make a curve. See how the pad of your finger and the "fist end" of your finger touch the table - that is what your razor is doing. Now, if you pull your finger towards you and off the table, note how you have to lower your hand in order to get the edge of the table to rub the bottom of your finger. Well, you need to match that when honing your razor by making an X and using the edge of your hone to achieve contact in the concave of the razor.

Man, that is much easier to explain in person - maybe it makes sense, maybe not....

The reason I suggested you send it out for honing or set it aside is that you are learning on a problem razor, and it would benefit from a more advanced type of honing. Yes, you could really wear down both sides to make it sit flat, but that is, in a way, a waste of time and steel (time because in the same amount of time you could set bevels on several razors and learn more in the process, and steel because you'd put much more wear on the razor than necessary). INO, you'd be better off getting a normal, straightforward razor to hone and learn how to hone simple razors first. Then, when you are ready, you can start on razors that require more advanced techniques, such as smiling razors and the warped razors. I just think it makes sense to start with the easier razors and move to the more difficult razors as you get better.