Thread: Coticule Frustrations.

Originally Posted by Scipio

How quickly does the slurry turn black/grey with heavy slurry, if at all?

hhhmmmm... at first I thought it was pretty fast, but I've come to the conclusion lately that it's actually very slow. I set a new bevel on a NOS Shapleigh, and it took a lot to turn the slurry dark grey. Maybe 100 laps, probably more, with moderate pressure too. I did maybe 400 laps with fresh slurry about every 100 before the bevel was properly set. I've been doing the dilucot method as if it was a very slow stone. Extending each step and diluting very slowly.
The stone itself seems to be very hard, I'd say my Thurry feels softer, if that means anything. It's my only coti, so I have nothing to compare it to other than my SpydercoUF, (very fast) my C12K, (slow) and my Thurry, (faster).

Originally Posted by Scipio

Perhaps post a few pics of the coti and possibly some of us may have a comparable stone, perhaps not - they are all extremely different. What size is yours?

OK, thanks for asking.

It's 6"x2", the box labels it as a "Belgian Razor Hone" so I'm sure it's acceptable for razors. I'm wondering if it's from the end of the coti spectrum that might not suit my prefferences. Don't get me wrong, I can get edges that shave, and comfortably, just not with the effortlessness that I've seen in my other coticule honed edge (honed by someone else on a different coti), and without the sheer keenness I can get from my thurry or spyderco.

Basil makes a good point. I'd just had the thought, especially after coming off the BBW side, maybe I'm over doing it. (particularily when I see in writing just how many laps I've been making) The next time around, I'll try fewer strokes after the BBW.

Thanks guys,

I am sorry guys but you all lose me at 100 laps, I just can't imagine doing 100-400 laps on any one stone...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

I am sorry guys but you all lose me at 100 laps, I just can't imagine doing 100-400 laps on any one stone...

No kidding. I have to admit, I only did it because i wanted to see how much it would really take to set a new bevel. I looked at it as part of learning this stone.
I don't think i'll try setting a bevel from scratch again on my coti. Too labour intensive for this old dog!

No NOS razor I've had, and I've had more than a few, has ever IMO needed any bevel work. Most of them, even a Wicawa I recently received that must have been at least 40-50 years old maybe more, could still pop hairs. All it needed was 20 strokes on my Escher and a good stropping to make it suit my standards.

I'd be surprised if any new razor, (old stock or not ) from a reputable maker needed more than 100 laps with plain water on any coticule that is suitable for razors.

Your coticule looks like a good one, maybe a quicker one as it has shades of pink. The type without 'pockets' and are smooth I find give nicer feedback in comparison to the middle one in my picture that looks like a white/yellow version of a BBW - that's what I mean by 'pockets.'

Having said this I have only seen and used 4 different cotis, so perhaps others can chime in.

I learned to hone a coticule and I to reached a point where I had hit a plateau.

I could get a shave able edge, but not by my standards.

I was upset, and put the hone away for 1 month. I realized my starting point was wrong. I was starting out with too much slurry.

How do you really know how much to start with for that specific hone? I had seen the words "milky" and had watched videos, etc, but never really knew if I was starting with too much slurry and did not even think about it. This allowed for many less strokes and a keener edge.

I am a newcomer to honing, so I cannot break down this stuff into science like some of guys. Please take my words with a grain of salt.

Out of curiosity, what other finishers (synthetic or otherwise) are you comparing to? I haven't tried out loads of coticules, but the ones I have tried have been "sharper" shavers than off my Naniwa 8k and the Norton 8k, but not as "sharp" as my C12k, vintage Thurry, or Asagi.

With the way that I use the term "finishing hone," I actually don't consider a coticule to be a finishing hone. I can get very nice shaves off it, but I can get "sharper" edges.

I'm putting "sharp" in quotes to describe how it feels on my face while shaving, not to reference the actual sharpness of the blade. It's just how I'm choosing to define it. Same with "finishing hone" - I'm choosing my own definition.

My NOS razor could shave arm hair as well, but I killed the edge on glass and it took that much to get it back. Easily 4x as much as it normally would after a downstroke. That tells me that the edge geometry was way out. My understanding is that the spine often isn't allowed to touch the stones at the factory to prevent wear on a brand new razor.
I know that the down-stroke is a little controversial, but in this case I think it really came into it's own. I know that the edge is pure coti, and not some mystery edge from a factory that hasn't been in business since the mid forties.
I wish now I'd looked at the edge under magnification before I'd started, but I've still got two more identical NOS razors to play with. I should try stropping and shaving with one before i hone it. Just for the heck of it.

I've thought about slurry thickness too, and I try to ere on the side of caution, but maybe I am still starting with it too thick. Something else to try.

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

Out of curiosity, what other finishers (synthetic or otherwise) are you comparing to? I haven't tried out loads of coticules, but the ones I have tried have been "sharper" shavers than off my Naniwa 8k and the Norton 8k, but not as "sharp" as my C12k, vintage Thurry, or Asagi.

With the way that I use the term "finishing hone," I actually don't consider a coticule to be a finishing hone. I can get very nice shaves off it, but I can get "sharper" edges.

I'm putting "sharp" in quotes to describe how it feels on my face while shaving, not to reference the actual sharpness of the blade. It's just how I'm choosing to define it. Same with "finishing hone" - I'm choosing my own definition.

I know exactly what you mean, Dylan.
The other hones I've used are Nani12k, Thurry, and a Spyderco UF. I've got a C12K, but it's never used.
I find that the edges i can get from the Nani and UF in progression are too sharp for comfort, at least at my skill level.
That's exactly how I would describe it too, in my limited experience. if I had to guess, Id say it feels like an 8 or 10K level edge.

My experience has been that if I go to the coti after the UF, I can feel it dulling the blade, even with my very most lightest strokes. Nothing I can describe, but it's a definate feeling of abrasivness. Plus, the sharpness tests show a bit of degradation in keenness.
(Note, this method has given me some of my best edges ever)

In that case, I think your results are pretty typical. It would be interesting to try 10 laps on chrome ox or .5 diamond after the coti to see what that does for you. It should bring the edge up a little bit.

Well my friend, I cant say if it is you, or the vintage coticule. Do you have any synthtetics?

One was I test naturals, in particular my coits, is against a known variable; for me it is the Naniwa 3/8k combo. This is a relatively inexpensive stone btw.

Hone a razor upto 8K and it should shave. Then test the coti off the 8K. See if it improves the edge, by how much and how long it takes. I'd say the 'average' coticule should improve the edge after around 50 strokes, the average coti being a medium cutter around 6 inches by 2 inches.

Then I would hone the same razor to 3K, then do the same with the coti using just water and checking the feedback. I would expect it to do little, so use a light slurry, thickening until an improvement arises in the edge. This would test the coti nicely for me, or at least give a good idea of its capability.

I would then make the razor dull, which you know how to do, then raise a good slurry on the coti. Then make 20 circles per side, maybe twice each and check if it shaves arm hair. This will tell you how agressive a cutter yours is. My smallest coti (the one with all the lines) turns the slurry black after 20 circles on one side using a thick slurry. The largest coti I have turns it a light grey after 20 circles on each side. The green one? Probably would have taken 4-6 sets of 20 on each side before the slurry went grey.

I believe that synthetics greatly assist me in determining how another stone cuts as described. This is my experience and so far a known grit (that is universally known amongst the community) that is a controlled variable will give me a constant comparable to assess any other hone.

The Nani 3/8K is my example - a 4/8K Norton is also highly if not more, popular.

Hope this helps somewhat.