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  1. #11
    Master of insanity Scipio's Avatar
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    Indians and arrows...I think Jimmy once said that the best weapon is useless in the hands of someone without the knowledge and experience to use it...


    I can get a great shave off a BBW, forget the coticule for a second.

    Glen once said something along the lines that a 1K provides 90% of an edge, a 4K or so another 5%, the 8K another 4% and then a 12K+ the remaining few % with the exception of small decimals for increments such as the 16 or 30Ks etc. YMMV and all steel is different, but you can appreciate the general picture. I certainly agree.

    So the difference between a 12K and a 30K in terms of sharpness once the bevel is properly set, is fairly minimal...it is certainly not over double as one may be inclined to think

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  3. #12
    They call me Mr Bear. Stubear's Avatar
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    When I started honing I hated the edges off my 16k Shapton. I always used pastes afterwards to improve the edge but things still werent quite right.

    With practice I found that actually the edges off just the 16k were pretty good, so I tried dropping down to 8k, as I'd heard the pro's say that this would be a good indicator of how good your edge was. Man, that felt like a horrible edge!

    But then I practiced some more and found that actually the 8k edge was really great as well.

    Around this time I started adding in some natural finishers and got myself a set of Naniwas to complement the Shaptons. I played around with these hones, trying different strokes, different razors, slurries and so on.

    With even more practice I managed to get a pretty decent shave off the 3k Naniwa, again after being prompted to try it by reading posts by the more experienced guys here.

    I've found that I get my best edges by using synthetic hones and then switching to a natural finisher, and then going right to my daily strop without using any pastes. Thats what works for me and what I like, but others may find they prefer synthetic hones or pastes.

    What this all taught me is that high end finishers and pastes will only leave you with a nice feeling edge if you have done the right work in the low grits. What Scipio says about the 1k providing 90% of the edge is correct IME.

    You'll more than likely find that with practice you start to like your 12k edges, then your 8k edges and maybe even lower than that, and that your 30k edges are sharper than you ever thought possible!

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  5. #13
    Heat it and beat it Bruno's Avatar
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    That is also why imo a pasted strop is a crutch, and will hinder progress in the hands of a newbie. They round the bevel dues to the sag, and thus make the edge sharper. If the edge already had perfect bevels, the strop would not make any difference.

    First learn to shave off an 8K stone. Unless you can do that, there is no point in investing more money in higher grit thinks.
    Til shade is gone, til water is gone, Into the shadow with teeth bared, screaming defiance with the last breath.
    To spit in Sightblinder’s eye on the Last Day

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  7. #14
    Member AFDavis11's Avatar
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    I got into straight shaving with the express purpose of being able to save money. The whole hone thing to me was something I wanted to avoid. I initially thought purchasing high grit hones of greater and greater cost was just plain silly. To this day I haven't really changed my mind too much. I rub my finger along the hone and every hone above 8K feels exactly the same. EXACTLY. So the idea here is that my wet sensitive finger can not tell the difference in feel between an 8K and a 12K but somehow it makes a huge difference to the bevel edge. Yea, right?

    Okay, so with this slightly skewed view I thought about what the primary difference is between my uncomforatable 8K honing and another guys 30K honing. I realized the primary difference was smoothness and time.

    I was immediately able to achieve better results by working on using more strokes than thought appropriate using the 8K. Say, 100 or 200 strokes. If you think about doing say, 20 strokes on 8K and then 20 on 12K, and then 20 on 16K, and then 20 on 30K, well, you have 80 strokes already. All of these were done on stones that are glass smooth to the touch of a wet finger.

    And while we are discussing this analogy. Have you ever thought about rubbing the pad of your index finger down a wet 8K hone for 100 strokes? Try it. After your done ask yourself this question. How much honing/polishing action did I just complete on my index finger, considering it doesn't even feel like I did anything. What do I expect would occur to a piece of steel if my own skin feels no difference in 100 strokes?

    So, I suggest, it's not so much your skill level as simply using a different technique. Try letting the 8K dry a little while honing. Try coming back to the 8K for a few more sessions, and more importantly, give the 8K as much honing time as you would all your other hones, together.

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  9. #15
    Modern Day Peasant Nightblade's Avatar
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    So I just bought a Naniwa12k and don't have alot of money right now.Question..can I get by with my current hone,and how many strokes should I do ? I just had both my blades pro honed.My dovo special is fine but I honed for the first time on my best quality,and I'm pretty sure I've dulled it.I just do four complete passes.But it's dull and I can't afford another stone.

  10. #16
    Senior Member johnmrson's Avatar
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    I get very comfortable shaves off my Chinese 12k stone. As someone else said, the vast majority of people over the ages would have shaved with an edge off a barbers hone. I think that we should be carful about not being too precious.

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  12. #17
    I used Nakayamas for my house mainaman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nightblade View Post
    So I just bought a Naniwa12k and don't have alot of money right now.Question..can I get by with my current hone,and how many strokes should I do ?
    for razor maintenance of already honed and shave ready razor yes, number of strokes depends, but I would start with very few and increase until the edge is back where it should be. If youlett he edge go past certain point 12k only will not work.
    I just had both my blades pro honed.My dovo special is fine but I honed for the first time on my best quality,and I'm pretty sure I've dulled it.I just do four complete passes.But it's dull and I can't afford another stone.
    It looks like you dulled your razor due to poor technique, to be able to hone a blade from bevel set to finish you will need more hones. This read might help you
    Beginner's Guide to Honing - Straight Razor Place Wiki

    @ OP, you should be able to get great shaves off a 12k stone.
    Shapton 30k has some tricks that can be applied for better edge, as mentioned above its very possible you are doing more strokes than needed and as a result the edge can't last.
    Stefan

  13. #18
    Senior Member Alembic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scipio View Post
    Glen once said something along the lines that a 1K provides 90% of an edge, a 4K or so another 5%, the 8K another 4% and then a 12K+ the remaining few % with the exception of small decimals for increments such as the 16 or 30Ks etc. YMMV and all steel is different, but you can appreciate the general picture. I certainly agree.

    So the difference between a 12K and a 30K in terms of sharpness once the bevel is properly set, is fairly minimal...it is certainly not over double as one may be inclined to think
    This is right where I was going to go. I had a thread I started called "Disappearing Edge" I had one great shave with a razor following my honing and then the next was horrible.

    Turns out, it was not the razor but the honer of the razor (me). I never had an edge in the first place, because I was not setting the bevel properly in the first place.

    You don't say how you are setting the bevel and how you are testing it, but IMHO I suspect that the 30k hone is polishing an unprepared edge.

    I shave just fine off of a 12k now that I have the bevel set process down.

  14. #19
    Senior Member Alembic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AFDavis11 View Post
    I got into straight shaving with the express purpose of being able to save money.

    - me too! Let's check my checking account balance, shall we?

  15. #20
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    Thanks for the replies guys. I passed out at the keyboard last night so I couldn't read your replies till this morning.

    I have received razors honed by many people that I am sure are very proficient at honing and to my standards there has only been one gentleman that sent me razors that only needed a "slight" touch-up and that was Robert Williams. I have sent razors out that I have sold and almost all have written back and expressed just how they loved the edge and asking how to duplicate it. I make sure that my bevel is very well set off a 1K and that it will easily cut hair before moving on.

    I use scything, the angle of the blade is almost touching my skin (which I think is possible because of a very keen edge), and my prep is very good by most standards. I just have a bit of hair on each side of my chin that will defeat any razor that is not very, very sharp. I have used DE razors in the past and most blades last no more than 3 shaves and that is pushing it.

    So..that leaves the "Princess and the pea" theory and that is going to take some real thought on my part. I will get out my Coticule and evaluate the shaves.

    Thanks,
    Richard
    Last edited by riooso; 10-06-2010 at 01:17 PM.

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