Thread: Question on Spine Taping and Angle

The only parts of the razor that touch the hone are the thin bands on the spine and edge, so those are the only parts that get scratched.

Myself, I prefer hone wear to stay where it belongs "On the Hone" Keep in mind I think my preference started because I started restoring razors early on, and in my mind spending hours hand-sanding a blade to a beautiful finish, then to cause wear on the spine after all the work in put into it, seemed like total insanity to my OCD brain...

It sounds like most honers are allowing for a certain amount of "hone wear" on the spine. Looking at some of the blades I've seen on here, I think it would be a travesty to generate a fine edge on one of them and scar the spine however slightly. I realize that they are functional entities, made to cut hair with, but they have an aesthetic value as well. I guess that is where the taping of the spine comes in. I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

Originally Posted by ace

I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

As I said above, if you take the tape off after you set the bevel and don't reset the bevel, you will not be honing the edge of the razor. Only the very back of the bevel will make contact with the hone. This means that, no matter what you hone on, you will still have the same edge as you did before you removed the tape. You said you saw that in a youtube video, but just because something is on youtube (or anywhere else) does not mean it is correct.

As for the spine wear - if you look at a brand new razor, you will see there is a flat area on the spine and on the edge (at least every new razor I have seen). The amount of honing that a new razor typically needs will not change that flat area enough for you to notice the difference. The same is true of many vintage razors (unless they need a lot of work to reset the bevel - i.e. chips or many heavy grind blades) - there is already wear there and you will probably not be able to tell the difference with or without tape.

Two exceptions that I can think of are restored razors (where the flat area at the spine is removed during the restoration process as a result of sanding/buffing/whatever) or some sort of full-razor decoration process (such as a damascus razor).

Originally Posted by ace

It sounds like most honers are allowing for a certain amount of "hone wear" on the spine. Looking at some of the blades I've seen on here, I think it would be a travesty to generate a fine edge on one of them and scar the spine however slightly. I realize that they are functional entities, made to cut hair with, but they have an aesthetic value as well. I guess that is where the taping of the spine comes in. I just can't figure why someone would take the tape off at the 4000 grit level. At that level, would there be no spine scarring?

Think of it this way, if you do not use tape and you hone the razor on any grit the same amount of wear will occur at the spine as will occur at the bevel. There will be some variation depending on whether you torque the pressure (slight) towards the bevel and if there is a variance of the hardness between the spine and the bevel.

Take an eye loupe and a brand new razor and check the line on the spine and you will see a scratch pattern. It may be slight but it will correspond with the pattern on the bevel unless they, like Hart and Zowada, use tape on their production.

I've read a number of times that you can set a bevel with tape and then remove it and move to a higher grit and it won't take a hell of a lot of strokes to get down to where you're honing the very edge again. I've done this myself a few times if I had chips to remove or whatever. Not unheard of.

Whether you want to use tape to avoid any wear is a personal choice and there is nothing wrong with it if you want to go that way. Many of the pro honemeisters tape the razors they do for customers to avoid any wear on the spine unless specifically requested not to. I probably would too if I honed someone else's razor.

I'm indebted to both of you gentlemen for sharing your knowledge. As regards the YouTube video (and your comment was to the point regarding believing everything one sees there), the gent doing the honing stripped the tape off, if I remember correctly, after completing the bevel at 1000K. He then moved on to 4000K. I see what you are saying about removing the tape changing the angle that one would get vis-a-vis the bevel.

I'm quite obviously a noob here, thinking of getting into maintaining my own razor. Having said that, I'll venture another question. I would be inclined to keep the tape on throughout the entire process, for the reasons you have mentioned. Would the tape get ground into the stone? Would it have the effect of slicking it up if some of the material in the tape got into it? BTW, I've looked at both your sites and found them attractive. I'll probably wind up a customer. Again, thanks!

Theoretically, if the edge wears at a faster rate than the spine, which taping will cause, this means that the bevel angle becomes ever so slightly bigger. This would be more significant at the lower grits and I guess would take many honing sessions done this way to make a significant difference.
If this angle is important (it may not be??), then the spine and edge must wear at the same rate to prevent the angle altering which means no tape.
All said I can see good reasons for taping as mentioned here, and think a good principal is to do the minimum on the hone to get the job done.

If you are going to use tape it isn't a bad idea to check it every now and again to see if the tape is wearing. If it is replace it with a new piece. Some guys do this with every change of grit.

What Deckard said about the relationship between bevel angle changing since the spine is not wearing while the bevel is could be an issue over many honings. Not sure how many but I think it would be a heap of 'em. Probably a lifetime.

Originally Posted by JimmyHAD

What Deckard said about the relationship between bevel angle changing since the spine is not wearing while the bevel is could be an issue over many honings. Not sure how many but I think it would be a heap of 'em. Probably a lifetime.

Yup, lots and lots of honing. If you think about it, the bevel angle changes when the ratio of the spine width to the blade width (edge to spine) changes. So let's say you always tape - that keeps the spine width constant. In order for the bevel angle to change, you have to decrease the blade width. How long does it take for that to happen?

Assuming you never damage your razor (so you never have to reset the bevel), that is the same as asking "How many passes do you have to do on your finishing/touchup hone to significantly change the blade width of a razor?"

Let's put that in perspective. A 1k hone should cut about 10 times faster than a 10k hone (which is around where the touchup/finisher will be, at the lower end). So how many strokes on the 1k to change your blade width? I doubt you'd notice it after 100 strokes. Maybe not even after 500. I bet it's even more, but let's assume it takes 500. That gives you 5000 passes on your finishing hone to change the blade width. And that is a barely perceptible change - maybe a fraction of a mm. I don't have the equations here in front of me, but I'd say that probably equates to a fraction of a degree - maybe 1/3 or 1/2 at most. But again, on the safe side, let's say 1 degree.

I would guess that for normal maintenance, at most, you'd do 10 strokes per week. So that gives you 500 weeks; or about 10 years to see the angle change. And that is if you use the razor every day, hone it every week, and go on the safe/low side with the numbers.

Now think about this - there is a range of bevel angles on razors, I think optimal angles have a range of two or three degrees. So that means 20 or 30 YEARS before there is an angle change that has any meaning (again, on the safe side with the numbers).

Based on all that, I wouldn't be concerned with changes in blade geometry from taping. Then again, I don't tape my razors in the first place (geometry is not the reason behind that choice).

Dylan, you lost me at "math".

FWIW: I too started out taping the spine. Now I am beginning to appreciate the feel of using no tape. I'll still use it if I'm doing major repair, but only in moderation. It's a case by case basis.