Thread: The science of pyramids?

Originally Posted by Redwoood

... but if your hone is as wide as your blade, don't you eventually overhone the toe and underhone the heel ?
...
So I need to to start with the heel at the edge, and as soon as I start honing (with the X pattern) more and more of the heel leaves the hone, while the toe is on the stone for the entire stroke.

Yeah, there's that in theory. In practice it's a bit different. Like much about this it depends on the individual. Pressure is one thing. How much you actually use the heel vs. the toe in the shave. etc.

I'm with Vlad, but I'd add that a smiling blade is actually easier for me to manoeuvre around the corners of my jawline and beside my adam's apple.

X

Originally Posted by Redwoood

So you use the X-pattern, even when the hone is wide enough for the entire blade ?

Redwoood

There is NO reason to use the x-pattern on a wide stone. If you hone straight across with the heel leading, you'll get exactly the same result, as far as the scratch pattern is concerned. Plus, going straight across with the entire edge, it's easier to keep the pressure even for the entire length of the blade.

A while back I was curious about the x-pattern and did some research. I found that it is recommended because it produces a slightly better edge. If you look in the old barber's manual, you can see that edge represented like a saw blade, with a sharp rise and gradual trail off. If you think of shaving with the tip leading, that's the best shape for the microserrations. Honing straight across gives you symmetrical teeth, which shave well if you push the blade straight ahead when you shave, but not if you lead with the tip.

BOTTOM LINE: the old barbers used the x-pattern for two reasons: they had narrow stones, and the x-pattern gives a better edge for shaving with tip leading, which is what they were taught. You'll get the same edge honing straight across with a wide stone, if you lead with the heel.

Thanks Joe, that makes perfect sense.

Redwoood

Straight across, heel leading honing strokes assume that the entire edge is making contact with the hone. This is something that must be evaluated for each razor.

Just my two cents

Originally Posted by vladsch

If you hone a blade with a smile then only a small part of the edge contacts the hone. That is why you have to use a slight shifting of the contact point throughout the stroke to go from heel to toe.

This also prevents the excessive honing of the toe since it does not touch the hone from start to finish of the stroke.

I find most of my blades require the slight rocking from heel to to and if they don't I still do this and impart a slight smile to the edge over time. I prefer a slight smile to a flat edge for purely aesthetic reasons. Both shave well, but to me a smile looks better.

Now your realy showing off Vlad ,most people would be happy with a razor sharp enough to shave comfortably, but you have to make your`s smile at you when you shave,next you will have the dam things telling jokes
regards peter

Originally Posted by randydance062449

Straight across, heel leading honing strokes assume that the entire edge is making contact with the hone. This is something that must be evaluated for each razor.

This works exactly the same as the x-pattern if the edge is straight (except it's easier to maintain even pressure). No extra considerations are necessary. If you have a smiling edge you can't use this approach because you need to sweep the blade.

X pattern is designed to hone blades with smiles, also a straight edge. The point is no matter how straight an edge is, the contact is never complete when honong straight pattern. Also, when honing holding the blade with one hand, the pressure is greater at the heel of the razor, so X pattern helps distribute the pressure across the blade.

Nenad

Originally Posted by superfly

X pattern is designed to hone blades with smiles, also a straight edge. The point is no matter how straight an edge is, the contact is never complete when honong straight pattern. Also, when honing holding the blade with one hand, the pressure is greater at the heel of the razor, so X pattern helps distribute the pressure across the blade.

I have to disagree with that. If you have a straight edge the entire edge should touch the stone, unless there's something wrong with your edge or the stone. If your edge doesn't and your blade isn't bent, and your stone is true you probably honed unevenly.

The only reason the x-pattern was used was because the stones used to be narrow and because it gives scratch lines that slant a certain way. It will handle smiles that are cut with extra honing at the ends of the blade, just like straight honing. It will not cut smiles that were made by swinging the blade.

It is virtually impossible to get even pressure when different parts of the blade are off the stone during different parts of the stroke. I'm willing to bet that like the rest of us you had to learn how to compensate for that. When you hone srtaight across with a leading heel, you'll get the same scratch pattern, but the entire edge is supported during the entire stroke, so even honing is easy. Some people even us to hands

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

I have to disagree with that. If you have a straight edge the entire edge should touch the stone, unless there's something wrong with your edge or the stone. If your edge doesn't and your blade isn't bent, and your stone is true you probably honed unevenly.

While this is true it is incomplete. Athough the whole blade on a perfectly flat edge (and we can argue about how many edges are perfectly flat) will assumedly touch the hone completely, it will not have equal pressure contact with the hone along its entire edge by simple virtue of the fact that the tip is farther away from the force (your hand) than the heel.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

It will not cut smiles that were made by swinging the blade.

It will cut all shaped edges well, even irregularly shaped blades. And smiles are normally either made from the 'Rolling Hone' method or intended out of the factory, but I assume Joe meant irregularly made smiles or perhaps 'smirks' as a result of a scything motion on the hone.

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

When you hone srtaight across with a leading heel, you'll get the same scratch pattern, but the entire edge is supported during the entire stroke, so even honing is easy. Some people even us to hands

This has not been my experience as I have said above regardless how hard I try. The edge of the hone also stymies me with the regular 'X' motion which is why I stick to the Rolling Hone.

As you can see Redwoood (& ToxIk?), there are almost as many opinions and ways of approaching this as there are members. You'll have to shuffle through all the suggestions to find what works best for you.

X

Thanks for all the great info guys. The thread is filled with relevant and useful knowledge. I lovit!

I think I'm well on my way to having my own personal system worked out. Some of the knowledge I have from sharpening knives has certainly come in handy, but all the tips, tricks and methods I've picked up here have helped immensely.

The system I kind of have worked out is loosely based off the pyramids and seems to work well. One thing I still work on greatly is experimenting and trying to find new ways to pickup feedback from the hones, or, whatever other method I'm using. The HHT and tree-top-trim test work very well and provide useful information. However, there just seems to be something lacking that I either haven't figured out yet, or don't know a test for. Ohh well, practice makes perfect; and I now have many blades to practice on (and much less money to practice with!).