Thread: Ace gets over the hump, well, kinda

Three layers of tape is a lot for a hollow ground razor, if you want to use any use one layer, I use none...I don't see the point. The reason the razor made the buttering toast sound is because when you use tape you're changing the shaving angle a bit...

For example if I use a 30 degree angle on a razor that didn't get honed with tape it may be more quiet than a razor that had three layers of tape..

When you use more tape it's like you're increasing the shaving angle of the razor so when you actually use more tape you should be shaving with an angle lower to your face (spine closer to your skin).

The raze sounds loud because it's like using a much higher angle with a razor that didn't use tape.

Try this, take a razor that wasn't honed with tape and shave with a crazy high angle, the razor will sound loud and scrappy...that's because the shaving angle is the same as a lower angle with a razor that was honed with a lot of tape, which is why it's also loud, your angle is too steep.

EDIT: also clauss razor's have very hard steel, harder than say a Solingen blade and they take more work on the bevel setting stage. Stay on the 1K level with one or no layers of tape and then keep on there until you can shave your arm razor easily, make sure bevel looks even in the light.

When you move to the 4K your arm hair should shave easier and not grab and cut, just cut.

As you progress you can shave arm hair easier and at a higher point (mid length as example) without any pulling or noise.

Originally Posted by Disburden

Three layers of tape is a lot for a hollow ground razor, if you want to use any use one layer, I use none...I don't see the point. The reason the razor made the buttering toast sound is because when you use tape you're changing the shaving angle a bit...

For example if I use a 30 degree angle on a razor that didn't get honed with tape it may be more quiet than a razor that had three layers of tape..

When you use more tape it's like you're increasing the shaving angle of the razor so when you actually use more tape you should be shaving with an angle lower to your face (spine closer to your skin).

The raze sounds loud because it's like using a much higher angle with a razor that didn't use tape.

Try this, take a razor that wasn't honed with tape and shave with a crazy high angle, the razor will sound loud and scrappy...that's because the shaving angle is the same as a lower angle with a razor that was honed with a lot of tape, which is why it's also loud, your angle is too steep.

EDIT: also clauss razor's have very hard steel, harder than say a Solingen blade and they take more work on the bevel setting stage. Stay on the 1K level with one or no layers of tape and then keep on there until you can shave your arm razor easily, make sure bevel looks even in the light.

When you move to the 4K your arm hair should shave easier and not grab and cut, just cut.

As you progress you can shave arm hair easier and at a higher point (mid length as example) without any pulling or noise.

Disburden,

I'll probably always use tape when honing to protect the spine and for appearance purposes.

I am experimenting with three layers only for the reason that I am trying to find a way to set a good bevel without "tall" sides, the sides being the distance from the edge to the end of the bevel. So far, mine seem to have been "taller" than the good ones that I have seen, and I am trying to find a way to make mine look more like those of the honemeisters.

As much as I am against breadknifing in principle, I have been doing that because going from three layers of tape to one or none and re-setting the bevel seems like an awful lot of work to take on. It seems like breadknifiing makes it quicker.

If I'm getting bevel edges that are too "tall" with three layers of tape, it is likely to get much worse with no layers, for the very reasons you detailed. Tonight I'm going to give two layers a shot at 220 and see if I can set a bevel without exerting any pressure. I tried that with 1K, but after three hours, more laps than I could possibly count, and three top layer tape replacements, it's hard to maintain paitence and not apply pressure.

Hi Ace,

Can you post a picture of the razor you've been working on? If it's an old one, it may have hone wear from its previous life. That hone wear could, in addition to pressure, contribute to your wide bevels by reducing the blade's angle to the hone.

I think breadknifing may be adding rather than subtracting time from your total honing. The only really good reason to breadknife is to grind past nicks or corrosion on the edge. To reset a bevel, you only need to hone past the existing worn (slightly convex) edges and replace them with two flat, intersecting planes. That doesn't require the removal of nearly as much metal as does reestablishment following a breadknifing.

Patience is key.

Good luck. I really hope you're rewarded with a success soon!

Originally Posted by roughkype

Hi Ace,

Can you post a picture of the razor you've been working on? If it's an old one, it may have hone wear from its previous life. That hone wear could, in addition to pressure, contribute to your wide bevels by reducing the blade's angle to the hone.

I think breadknifing may be adding rather than subtracting time from your total honing. The only really good reason to breadknife is to grind past nicks or corrosion on the edge. To reset a bevel, you only need to hone past the existing worn (slightly convex) edges and replace them with two flat, intersecting planes. That doesn't require the removal of nearly as much metal as does reestablishment following a breadknifing.

Patience is key.

Good luck. I really hope you're rewarded with a success soon!

Roughkype,

I'm somewhat photographically challenged, and kind of lazy as well, but that's the second request I've had for a photo of the razor I'm currently in the process of screwing up. I may do that tomorrow. You're in the process of talking me out of my breadknifing career. That's sad because breadknifing is the one part of honing I've got figured out.

It certainly does prolong the bevel-setting process. I've been trying to avoid using pressure because the hollow ground Clauss I'm practicing with flexes under pressure, and I wind up with a bevel that appears to me to be too "tall" (occupying too much space on the side of the blade) and look amateurish. It also seems to have produced edges that are too thin, weak, and don't stand up to shaving. After I've breadknifed, I try to use no pressure to set the bevel, but it quite literally takes hours and I wind up using pressure just to get it over with and then, once again, end up with a tall and unsightly bevel. Tomorrow morning (I'm worn out from thousands of laps tonight), I'm going to try starting with a coarse stone in the Smith Tri-Hone system, using no pressure at all. I'm sure that stone is lower than 220 grit. If I can get a bevel set with that with no pressure, I'll then move up through the 220, the 1K, and on to my 4K, 8K (all Nortons) then my Naniwa 12K and go from there.

Don't feel too sorry for me. I've been shaving with a Dovo Shavette, produced especially for us masochists, and just made the decision to see if I could hone up a razor to shave readiness myself. I do have some shave ready straights, even one done by you-know-who, so I could go that way if I wanted to. But I'm pretty determined about this. I'm just trying to find a way to go about bevel-setting that doesn't take three hours and give me carpal tunnel syndrome in the process.

Your idea about staying away from breadknifing is right on the money. Tomorrow I'll start with the bevel I already have and just hone past it. Thanks!

I am experimenting with three layers only for the reason that I am trying to find a way to set a good bevel without "tall" sides, the sides being the distance from the edge to the end of the bevel. So far, mine seem to have been "taller" than the good ones that I have seen, and I am trying to find a way to make mine look more like those of the honemeisters.

As much as I am against breadknifing in principle, I have been doing that because going from three layers of tape to one or none and re-setting the bevel seems like an awful lot of work to take on. It seems like breadknifiing makes it quicker.

If I'm getting bevel edges that are too "tall" with three layers of tape, it is likely to get much worse with no layers, for the very reasons you detailed. Tonight I'm going to give two layers a shot at 220 and see if I can set a bevel without exerting any pressure. I tried that with 1K, but after three hours, more laps than I could possibly count, and three top layer tape replacements, it's hard to maintain paitence and not apply pressure.

Two comments, and one suggestion:

1. The width of the bevel (if it's flat, which it should be) depends on:

. . . the geometry of the blade -- thickness / width ratio, which determines the
. . . "included angle" of the bevel;

. . . the thickness of the blade at the base of the bevel.

It does _not_ depend on the skill of the honer.

2. Breadknifing may give a sense of satisfaction --

. . . That chip is gone!

but you'll have to remove just as much metal, during bevel-setting, as you would have removed without the breadknifing. It's the same total work, either way.

3. If you want to apply pressure during bevel-setting, put your fingers right on the bevel, not on the body of the blade. That minimizes the bending of the blade.

I agree with you -- on a coarse stone, with no pressure, it takes _forever_ to remove metal. But with light pressure, you'll make progress.

Charles

Yep, hang in there. I've been setting a bevel/honing past nicks on a blade I bought as part of a batch of renovation projects. It's a faux frameback with just the right amount of smile. I've worked on it for 3 or 4 evenings, on a DMT 325 and 650. I've got one layer of tape on the spine to prevent wear from the heavy grinding, but will remove it once I start honing on the 1000-grit stone. That's because I want the stropping plane to be the same as the honing plane.

I keep thinking it'll only be one more evening of work, but there's still a hint of the old bevel out at the very edge and a tiny chip that will go away with it. One of these evenings will be the final one.

It's a slow process, at least for mortals like us. I'm learning, as I go, that many honing projects take more than one sitting. I hope your own work is going better.

And thanks to both of you for your suggestions and support. I'm up early today to see if I can set another bevel, this time with non-deformed bevel sides. Stay tuned, although this could take all day. I'm starting at 80 grit, and know it's not recommended, but I want to see it what it'll do.