Thread: May I over-analyze honing?

Great info Alan and thanks for prviding the link. I don't always know why the information is in the old texts, but I'm inclined to trust it. It comes from men who upheld the tradition for genberations before us.

I think what we're talking about here is like swimming if i might use an swimming analogy. You can swim in running shoes but you won't do so well. Take them off and you do better. Use flippers and you're doing better still. That's what I imagine lining up the striations to be like. Getting that extra push.

X

THe best information I was able to get on the benefit of the x-pattern came from the barber manual, but not explicitly. It came from observing the magnified razor edge diagram.

First of all, every abrasive produces scratch lines they just get finer with finer abrasive, but they don't diaappear. using the x-pattern produces scratch lines that go back and toward the tip, but where they intersect the edge they produce a tooth that has a steep leading edge and a shallow trailing edge. If you use the blade in a push fashion or tip leading, the trailing edge is at an angle to the hairs and cuts them with a slicing motion. If you had pushed straight across, you would get a tooth with a even leading and tailing edges, and if you shave with the tip leading (as the manual teaches) the leading edge pushes into the hair and the trailing edge is at sucha sharp angle that it doesn't reall slide across the hair. This is the reason the manual advances the x-pattern: it maximizes cutting when you use the tip leading pattern they teach. Your half-x has different scratch directions on each side (as oppose to having them parallel) so I don't know what it gives you, but it doesn't seem like it could be good.

The treatises choice of that honing pattern seemed to be fairly arbitrary in an effort to eliminate the effect of scratch lines, yet the barber manual specifically ponts out the benefit of those lines.

Even with a 4K stone you have about 12 scratch lines per hair, so I wouldn't expect the effect of the teeth to be a major one, but I also don't see how the half x or double x patterns could be of any benefit. BTW, the scratch lines produced by a strop cross those produced by a hone, so you actually do get a double x pattern if you use hones and pasted strops.

I look forward to the results of your experiment, but I wonder how it could result in meaningful conclusions without testing a lot of blades honed the different ways and then blind tested by different shavers.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

The cutting pattern we replicate on a stone creates striations on the edges of each side of the bevel of the razor. These striations, when aligned properly help cut the whiskers of the beard. They need to oppose each other to be most effective. They are the base structure of the fin or cutting edge.

Since the edge hasbevels, it's the termination of the striations at the edge (or the plateau between them) that produces the teeth we call the fin. I have seen them in high magnification electron microscope shots of a knife edge (if any one is interested, I'll find and provide the URL to the site).

The goal in all knife sharpening is to create the sharpest edge. That comes with the finest striations and accounts for the improved cutting of a coticule honed edge as compared to an 8K. The coarser stones produce teeth which are less sharp (don't cut as well) but hold up better because they have a stronger physical structure. In sharpening, there is always a tradeoff between the sharpness of an edge and its durability. It's no different with razors. The easier cutting associated with a sharper edge comes at the price of having to refresh it more often. It's the reason a Feather DE blade will cleanly remove your whiskers with no force, while an incompletely sharpened str8 will be rough and leave a lot of hair on your face.

So, I believe the three characteristics your searching for in an edge for say a medium beard are a balance between sharp, smooth (the literal edge itself remains unbroken microscopically) and striated. For fine beards I'm certain that striations probably have little effect.

I don't accept that the heavier striations are necessary for anything but robustness. With a heavy beard they may be indispensible, because the edge would otherwise be too weak, much like a wire edge. But for any other beard, sharper is better, up to the point where you begin to weaken the edge too much. We have infact experienced this from our work with finer pastes, yet the edge preoduce by a .25 paste (100K) is not too weak for most shavers.

If you follow the X pattern or a heal leading stroke and keep the angle correct during the stroke the striation pattern created can help a little in cutting whiskers (more so with a heavy beard). You can create a finer and finer edge and the finer you go the less important the striations become because your honing into an edge as sharp as a DE and it cuts purely on edge sharpness.

This is where I disagree. Every edge cuts on edge sharpness. The sharper, the better it cuts. It's basic physics and a common principal of sharpening. Note that the treatise looks at the thickness of the edge (literally sharpness) as a figure of merit. I totally agree that coarser striations will improve durability of the edge, but we need to keep the concepts of sharpness and durability separate. If you're willing to work a lot, sharpness will always cut better. BTW, smoothness and sharpness are inseparable, because the finer striations always produce a smoother edge. But there has to be a limit where we can feel smoothness (of the bevels), while the sharpness of the edge continues to improve, which also gives the impression of greater smoothness.

Once you understand the relationship striation actually has on cutting ability it helps to understand other "odd" phenomenom like why a pyramid method works on honing. Leaving a striation in place with a low grit pass, then smoothing for 3-5 passes on a higher grit, makes much more sense once you keep the striation pattern in mind (in my opinion).

I'm not sure this explains it at all. Larger striations cannot make the edge sharper ro smoother, just more durable. The mixed grit honing gives you fine teeth interspersed by large grit spaces, kind of a serrated pattern. But serrations don't cut smoother. They cut certain types of surfaces, like meat, better (by tearing). A hair is not that type of surface. I think the large grit phenomenon is simply expalined by the fact that it reduces the number of swipes. After the high grit pass you can continue to hone with increasingly finer grits and you will not lose sharpness, but increase it.

Are you saying that and edge with interspersed fine teeth will cut whiskers better than a continuous edge with the same teeth? I don't think there is any evidence for that or that it makes a lot of sense.

It may also explain why some very experienced honers can get a razor to cut effortlessly on almost any rock, even as low as 8k and others need nothing less that .25 paste.

I think this is explained entirely by experience with a particular hone. Some guys have so much of it with the 8K that they can get very fine results. Others have come to rely on the pasted strop and can't get those results with just a hone.

Alan,

Thanks again for the lead on the Barbers Manual...discovered an additional problem in my technique...not holding the razor flat enought to my face...made that change this morning and had my most comfortable shave yet!

Dave

Originally Posted by Tobico4

Alan,

Thanks again for the lead on the Barbers Manual...discovered an additional problem in my technique...not holding the razor flat enought to my face...made that change this morning and had my most comfortable shave yet!

Dave

Great, actual experience and learning focused on straights and not other cutting tools can produce some interesting knowledge. Have fun!

I guess I need to reread the Barbers Manual. A lot of this is very good info, maybe a bit over my head!

Originally Posted by robertlampo

I've heard of guys who use no x-pattern whatsoever. They use a simple back-and-forth stroke. I hope others weigh in on this too but regardless of the x-pattern or straight stroke, the bevel/edge will still be created.

Maybe someone like Alan could weigh in about the striations - he's done a lot of research about that topic (it always causes controversy).

-Rob

Toe leading would be like honing the x-pattern from heel to toe, reversing the slant of the scratch lines. I don't know anyone that does that.