Thread: May I over-analyze honing?

As I mentioned in a previous post, I have been using the Half-X honing pattern because I didn’t think there would be any difference between it and the Full-X. And now, after reading the Treatise on sharpening mentioned in another post, I don’t think either pattern is sufficient. First, I’ll explain why then discuss the new pattern, the 4-X.

Let's establish some terminology:

Let's assume conventional honing is used, NOT back-honing.

If the blade is drawn across the hone from heel to toe, the scratches will start at the edge and slant forward toward the toe - let's call this toe-leaning.

If the blade is drawn from across the hone from toe to heel, the scratches will start at the edge and slant backward toward the heel - let's call this heel-leaning.

Considering each side of the blade separately, since we may shave with the heel leading or the toe leading or anywhere in between, I don't see what difference it would make if the scratches are toe-leaning or heel-leaning.

I think the only significant difference between the Full-X and Half-X must be at the edge itself in how the scratches come together at the edge.

In the Full-X, the scratches on both sides will be toe-leaning and look like this:

(toe-leaning)
////////////////////////////////////////////////////// toe of blade
-------------------------------------------------------edge
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\ \\\\
(toe-leaning)


In the Half-X, the scratches will approach the edge from opposite directions and look like this:

(toe-leaning)
////////////////////////////////////////////////////// toe of blade
------------------------------------------------------edge
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////
(heel-leaning)

The question is, do either of these patterns produce an optimum edge?


The treatise on sharpening mentioned in another post discusses a 4-stroke X pattern, consisting of both toe-to-heel and heel-to-toe strokes on both sides of the blade, resulting in this:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX toe of blade
---------------------------------------------------------edge
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX


This stroke eliminates any grooves by honing each side in both directions and will result in the most uniform and smoothest edge.

I’m going re-hone one of my shavers with the 4-X, using my usual 8000 waterstone, coticule, .5 pasted strop and .25 pasted strop, and try it tomorrow. I’ll post the results.

Tom

I've heard of guys who use no x-pattern whatsoever. They use a simple back-and-forth stroke. I hope others weigh in on this too but regardless of the x-pattern or straight stroke, the bevel/edge will still be created.

Maybe someone like Alan could weigh in about the striations - he's done a lot of research about that topic (it always causes controversy).

-Rob

I'm one of those guys who do not use the x pattern. In reality if you hone straight with the heel leading slightly the result will be the same and it works just fine for me. I guess you could use the opposite with the toe leading, I haven't tried it but it would just reverse the striations. I don't know if that pattern would have any deleterious effect on the bevel or not. Thats a question for Lynn or one of the real Honemeisters here.

It's an interesting experiment you're conducting. I remember reading that one of the regulars (urleebird?) hones with an alternating pattern that would be somewhat like the 4-X pattern. You hone one direction, and as you change grits you go the other direction until the scratches are polished out, then reverse directions and hone until the scratches are polished out, etc.

I think its worth a try and see what you get. If your using too low a grit as a finishing stone or too much pressure on the finishing laps you'll likely get a better edge.

I think you should read the 1961 barbers manual in the help files if you haven't all ready.

Once you start throwing the pastes in like .5 and .25 I get worried about your conclusion on striations. I think they get a little oversmooth and "crisscrossy". Yet the edge in general remains sharp. You almost lose the need for striations (assuming you have a light not heavy beard).

One word of caution though on your conclusion. Many, many have found that each blade needs a differing technique to get ultra sharp (I'm talking wowzer sharp, not just shaving sharp). My most recent conclusion on this is that the main variable in each razor is the precise angle needed on the X pattern in order to striate and then finish each edge. Each edge seems to respond differently (either break microscopically or become hyper fine) in response to a varied angle. Therefore, your new pattern could easily replicate the better angle for an indvidual razor, rather than the best overall pattern. I'd suggest trying your ideas on two razors from two companies with differing grinding techniques over the steel blank.

In general though, especially if your using pastes at the end, you'll probably get some improvement. If you were using high grit stones alone and have a heavy beard you might be heading in the wrong direction (no pun intended).

Let us know how it goes!

Alan,

You make several comments that imply a need for striations with a heavy coarse beard.

Since I have what my wife describes as a "wire brush" beard you caught my interest. Could you please elaborate.

Dave

Dave,

Its in the 1961 Barbers manual, in a more concise manner than I can share here. Here are my thoughts on the matter, only my opinion ofcourse.

The cutting pattern we replicate on a stone creates striations on the edges of each side of the bevel of the razor. These striations, when aligned properly help cut the whiskers of the beard. They need to oppose each other to be most effective. They are the base structure of the fin or cutting edge. They shear the whiskers off appropriately in combination with a sharp edge, which is critical, and a smooth edge, which is very important too. So, I believe the three characteristics your searching for in an edge for say a medium beard are a balance between sharp, smooth (the literal edge itself remains unbroken microscopically) and striated. For fine beards I'm certain that striations probably have little effect. I find for my beard type, or if I shave on a 3 or 4 day beard the striations are much more important. In fact I was able to create shaving edges which were not very sharp at all. They shaved great, yet not extremely close. They only tear down the whiskers, but leave a little stump which makes you feel like you have a really pronounced 5 O'clock shadow, and by 3 o'clock no less :-). This edge has great cutting effect, its heavily striated, which is like having bigger teeth on the edge itself. Therefore this edge is a little too course for a comfy shave or a close shave (imagine shaving with electric clippers or a serrated, yet sharp knife).

If you follow the X pattern or a heal leading stroke and keep the angle correct during the stroke the striation pattern created can help a little in cutting whiskers (more so with a heavy beard). You can create a finer and finer edge and the finer you go the less important the striations become because your honing into an edge as sharp as a DE and it cuts purely on edge sharpness. This lasts about 6-7 days until it dulls. A straight on the other hand can last a few more days, maybe up to 20 or so if your using the striation effectively. Most stones do a great job of leaving a little striation. I still believe that we should leave just a little striation for the best cutting edge. Unfortunately, you can't simply decide that your not using striations and that they are NOT important unless your not honing your razor because the striations are always there, and simply attempting to make them smaller and smaller doesn't make them go away. The question only remains, will you mix the alignment up so much that they don't have the ability to cut, or attempt to use them. Again, either will work. Unaligned striations just have a dendancy to "pull" when shaving. But, you can get the impression that varied angles are ok or even good for honing, because you are smoothing the edge down more and more and if using a light touch, like you should, you can smooth the edge nicely and think, well, "maybe I should have been doing this all along", when what your really doing is emphasizing one characteristic of the edge more than you were before or your finally emphasizing smoothness as much as you should have been all along. You can imagine that continued honing with an ultra light touch will have the same effect as smoothing in varied angles because you never place the blade at the exact same spot, nor run the blade at the exact same angle, although we might all try. So, with either method and a light touch the razor should get very sharp and very smooth. This gives you a great shave and as they say, 'two out of three" ain't bad.

You can read more about it, and see good graphics as well from the 1961 Barbers manual, which I find very helpful. I have added a link to the page in question to help your understanding (or for some, belief). It is the middle link on the URL I provided.

Once you understand the relationship striation actually has on cutting ability it helps to understand other "odd" phenomenom like why a pyramid method works on honing. Leaving a striation in place with a low grit pass, then smoothing for 3-5 passes on a higher grit, makes much more sense once you keep the striation pattern in mind (in my opinion). It also helps you understand why some people find straights "pull" more than a DE or that the edge goes after 5-6 days, and yet others shave for a month or two on the same edge. Or sometimes you can ask someone how they maintain a razor and they'll say "I hone it on a high grit hone every couple of weeks and then all of a sudden I need to go back to the 4K grit for a pass or two". Now I know that many, many passes on an 8K grit, barber hone, or coticule should keep an edge running indefinetly but when it doesn't work anymore, yet obviously keeps "sharpening" I had to start questioning what I knew. I have concluded that even a sharp razor can benefit from a low grit pass occasionally, not so much to make the edge sharper but simply to reapply the striations and get more cutting teeth back on the edge. These ofcourse are resmoothed down again, making their work less appreciated, but they are still there doing the yoemans work of cutting the whiskers, helping to shear them a little, if you will.

It may also explain why some very experienced honers can get a razor to cut effortlessly on almost any rock, even as low as 8k and others need nothing less that .25 paste.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/compo...d,19/Itemid,3/

Wow, that's a very interesting posting.
I think I'll have to reread it to suck up all the information...

Redwoood

Alan,

Thanks for the explanation and the link! Always more to learn!

Dave

Your welcome,

Keep in mind though that the overall effect of striations is minor. Its probably not critical to work at achieving them. They exist regardless of what you do. And they work whether you try to apply them at the right angle or not. At best I can lower pulling a little from a thick beard by trying to align them better.