Thread: Need diagnostic help...

This is my first post, although I've spent quite a few hours gleaning wisdom from this excellent resource. I'm new to straight razor shaving, and thus far I haven't been able to get through a complete shave. I think the problem is the sharpness of my razor (or razors; in two weeks I've already gotten four, including a W&B 7/8 that will be beautiful someday). First my question, then the background.

My question is, what other honing techniques can I try, given the equipment I currently have?

Here's what I've tried: My favorite eBay razor was blunt enough that it didn't even have a bevel. To establish a bevel, I stuck some 600-grit sandpaper to a piece of glass with water and tried to grind a bevel that was even on both sides, keeping the spine and edge flat. I applied some pressure, maybe a medium amount. I actually worked the blade back and forth without flipping it over for a while, then flipped it and repeated on the other side.

Then I went to 1500 and 2000 grit sandpapers, using more of a honing motion: stroke, then flip the blade, then stroke on the other side. I'd say I did 50 laps on each grade of paper.

Finally I went to a barber's hone, which I think is ceramic. It's a Boss hone I got on eBay. I've lapped it on 600-grit paper and a piece of glass, so it should be flat.

I spent about 20 minutes doing X patterns on the hone, slowly, trying to keep the spine flat and use little or no pressure. I'm going slowly on the hanging strop, trying to keep the razor flat.

When I look at the edge with the 60x Radioshack microscope, I see a pretty consistent scratch pattern. I can see some irregularities in the edge, but it looks pretty straight to me.

But the razor shaves my arm hair reluctantly, and when I try it on my face . . . well, let's just say I used a lot of witch hazel this morning. It does shave, but it doesn't get even my sideburns smooth without a LOT of strokes, and it sticks fast in my chin stubble.

So, to clarify my question, assuming that my actual shaving technique is not the problem (I'm using a mug and brush, showering first, keeping my beard wet, using lots of lather, stretching my skin, keeping the spine one to two spine widths from my skin, going with the grain on my first pass), can I get a shaving-sharp edge from my barber's hone? How many laps on the barber's would it take to polish the coarse edge from the 2000 grit paper? What else can I try that I haven't already done?

Also, is a wire edge visible under the 60x microscope? What does it look like?

I know, I know, I really should send it to Lynn or one of the other guys, but I'd like to be able to get an edge I can use while I wait for them to work their magic. The Mach III is just killing me...

Thanks for any help you can offer--this forum is great.

Ideally you need to get a 2" Norton 4k/8k waterstone. 3" is ok if you can't find the 2". That should be ok for restoring mildly rough blades. If you don't feel like spending that much money, look into the Japanese slip stones. Get the 4k and 8k. http://w-u.com/wucatresults.htm?snum=26375 They were advertised as Chinese but when I picked'em up from their CDN distributor, they had Made in Japan labels. With them I was able to keep my blades shaving very nicely and they're cheaper than the Norton. Since they are wedge-shaped, you need to place one on top of the other to get a flat surface. Norton is easier to work with because it's longer and it cuts faster but these will get the job done on a budget. Only after getting it nice and sharp on either of the two alternatives is your razor ready for a finishing hone. However, I didn't find any distinct benefits unless you use a larger Coticule, a Shapton Pro Series or a few other pricier hones. Don't use that razor until you hone it on 4k/8k stones. Good luck!

Get the 3" Norton 4k/8k much better.

Thanks for the tips; the Norton is a little out of my budget right now, so I got the slip stones. From there I guess I can just follow the pyramid, since I'll have 4/8k stones available.

What is the grit equivalent for an average barber's hone?

There is no standard grit for barbers hones. I think they tend to run 8k to 13k or so. This is a huge jump from the 2k grit paper you used, so you're not getting anywhere fast. They weren't intended to get a dull razor sharp, just for keeping a sharp razor sharp.

If it's having trouble shaving arm hair then it's nowhere near shaving sharp. Even at 2k grit I wouldn't take it to a higher grit until it can pop arm hair without touching the skin.
It sounds like the razor needs to go back to about 4k or so, then up to 8k, then to a finishing hone (like your barber's hone).

Originally Posted by mparker762

There is no standard grit for barbers hones. I think they tend to run 8k to 13k or so.

The hardest thing to find in barber hones was the coarser grits. The coarsestI found was a Carborundum 201, on which the coarse side seems coarser than 4K. The other side is 6-8K. It's a surprizinglyfast barber hone. There is also an Ahconite and a double duc dry, both of which have one fairly coarse side.

Before I found the coarse hones, it was pretty difficult (a lot of work) to set up a new edge with a barber hone.

It will take you a lot more pyramids than with the Norton. Here are a few useful tips with these stones:

1) Use a plastic bread-board as a working surface and moisten it first. It will keep the surface moist and preserve some of the slurry.
2) Take off the labels and lap both surfaces.
3) Always use one side for regular honing and one for circular.
4) If you don't want your stones to slip, wipe off the adhering sides after soaking them and then press them firmly together.
5) Have a bowl of water next to you and dip the blade in it before honing each time you turn over the stones.
6) They are small, so watch your fingers as you're holding them.

Joshearl,

You have a private message . . .

OK, my 4/8k slip stones arrived today, so I'm going to give them a try tonight. Couple more questions here:

FiReSTaRT mentioned that it would take more pyramids with these than on the Norton. Why is that? Are they less aggressive than the Norton, even though they have the same grit?

Second, should I start out doing pyramids, or should I just work on the 4000 stone for a while and then start pyramids?

(I'm not too concerned about wasting metal on this razor, since it's pretty basic and only cost me about $1.50 on eBay.)

Meanwhile I'll start saving for that Norton...

Thanks,
Josh

Hi Josh,
Here's the lowdown on the stones:
1) They are slow-cutters compared to N4/8k, they are shorter and narrower. Therefore you have 2 handicaps right away (cutting rate and surface covered per pass). On a good note, they will turn your razor into a shaver.
2) You should download Randy T's help file on the pyramid and Lynn's tips, especially #2.
Even though the disclaimer says that the Help file only applies to N4k/8k and that the pyramid needs to be adjusted to work on other hones, it will work on the slipstones that you have, it will just need to be repeated.

What I would do if I were you is do about 40 passes on the 4k with pressure. Then another 30 passes with the 8k. The 8k will polish the current bevel and you'll know which parts of the blade need more work and you can focus on them as you work the 4k/8k pyramids until you get an even bevel.

If you're planning on buying the Norton, get the 2" wide one. It will feel the same way those slipstones do, but it will cut faster and with the longer strokes, you will need fewer passes. In addition to that you save a bit of cash.

Edit: A few more tips:
1) Lap the working surfaces of the stones after soaking them, by rubbing them against each other, under the tap.
2) You can use the thick side of one slipstone to clean the accumulated metal off the surface of the other, again under the tap.
3) If your edge has any nicks or pitting, you can use circular honing on the underside of the 4k to eliminate'em.