Thread: Honing difference - meister vs newb

Bill,

Very nice post. I really appreciate you sharing that. I wonder if your razors "draw" on a strop then? I have a theory about strop draw that your honing technique could answer.

Its nice when you know enough about straights to really see the valuable posts. This one was gold!

Originally Posted by urleebird

Redwood has it down pretty darn close.

I find that the width of the cutting edge is directly proportional to three characteristics

• Thickness at the spine
• Width of the blade
• And... thickness of the blade at the cutting edge

The third characteristic, I think, having the most to do with it. To illustrate, notice that the closer a blade gets to the profile of a wedge shaped blade, the wider the cutting edge winds up being.

In addition, I probably break everyone else's rules here when it comes to honing. I use considerable pressure at the beginning of each stage of honing on each of the stones I use with and emphasis on the edge rather than the spine. I only lighten up on the pressure with the last 5 -10 strokes on each one of them. ( I normally use only 3 stones )

This process creates an opportunity to address the very edge of the cutting bevel when it is time to strop. To put it more simply, the back edge of the bevel doesn't have to follow the plane of the front end of it to have great cutting ability.

The extra amount removed from the back of the bevel on a straight razor edge would only be recognizable under some pretty good magnification. But it is often enough to get a very good cutting edge, especially on some of the lesser quality steels. This means that only the very edge of the blade is addressed... not necessarily the entire cutting bevel. ( There... my secret is out )

The width of the bevel, however, is not an indication on how well the razor will shave. I have some with a 32nd edge that will shave the same as one that is near an 8th. The steel is also a big factor.

This is true on a lot of razors, but not so much with the full hollow grinds on wider blades. Looking at the cross section of one of these will reveal that there looks to be up to a quarter inch of parallel blade thickness before the upward sweep of the grind starts making it thicker. This would mean that you would have a narrower cutting bevel until you honed to that upward sweep as Redwood correctly points out.

If anyone wonders, I sharpen a razor with this progression

• 1,000 grit (only if the blade is really dull)
• 4,000 grit Norton
• 8,000 grit Norton
• .5 green pasted leather honing bed (Hand American)
• plain smooth leather on a honing bed (Hand American)
• touch up on one of Tony's strops

Originally Posted by urleebird

This process creates an opportunity to address the very edge of the cutting bevel when it is time to strop. To put it more simply, the back edge of the bevel doesn't have to follow the plane of the front end of it to have great cutting ability.

The extra amount removed from the back of the bevel on a straight razor edge would only be recognizable under some pretty good magnification. But it is often enough to get a very good cutting edge, especially on some of the lesser quality steels. This means that only the very edge of the blade is addressed... not necessarily the entire cutting bevel. ( There... my secret is out )

Bill, I don't understand this. Can you rephrase that or illustrate?

Normally the bevel runs exactly flush with the angle from edge to spine. A long triangle if you will, separated by what would be the hollow of the grind. What he is describing is honing the back end of the bevel lower than the line between egde and spine. This way the back of the bevel is out of the way and the razor rests directly on the edge when stropping, not on the edge and bevel as it does when I hone a razor. I assume you would have to strop a razor as such with a feather light touch.

Originally Posted by AFDavis11

What he is describing is honing the back end of the bevel lower than the line between egde and spine. This way the back of the bevel is out of the way and the razor rests directly on the edge when stropping, not on the edge and bevel as it does when I hone a razor. I assume you would have to strop a razor as such with a feather light touch.

Can you explain this some more. I'm not following. I can't see how you can avoid resting on the bevel without lifting the spine. The edge, the bevel and the side of the spine are allin a plane because of the way a razor is honed.

Can't stay...bye bye, now...

Originally Posted by urleebird

Like I say, this is probably a significant deviance to methods that have been accepted for longer than I have been around.

Compound angle is recommended for sharpening knifes also. It is more durable than the straight triangular one. And at least couple of my new and honemeister honed razors had this compound angle when looked under magnification. It is self explainable since it saves time both in the factory and at the honemeister's workbench.

However, for a normal user maintaining his shaving rotation, there is no need for creating this kind of bevel...


Nenad

Excellent! If there's anything I've learned from life, it's that the rules we learn, like not using too much pressure because you'll hone only the back of the bevel, often hinder with creative solutions.

Compound angles have always been used by knife sharpeners to create a more durable edge without having too large a working bevel. This achieves exactly that result, and it would be a great solution for those guys with the really tough beards.

I assume it's done with a little pressure honing AFTER you have the working bevel.

What would be the best way to MAINTAIN the compound angle?

Can't stay...bye bye, now...

Originally Posted by urleebird

Now, I'll really get everyone going. Theoretically, unless there are nicks in the blade to take out, you would never need to hone a razor at all. Continual stropping will eventually turn the edge into a saber grind of the edge. A saber grind is just a sloped grind with a bit of an arch to it. Rounded at the back of the bevel, so to speak.

Interesting observation, Billy!

Is this achieved by using an unpasted strop only or do you need to use a pasted strop first and then an unpasted strop? If this can be achieved with an unpasted strop only it would contradict the observations by Verhoeven (often quoted by Joe Lerch) who found that stropping does not remove metal but only realigns the edge.