Thread: Beginner story - the carter way

Gugi and shooter,
thanks for the info. Actually what gugi said about microchips developing when you hone, surprised me. On the 6k, this time I did 40 circles and about 20 laps. At least there were no chips or wire edge. Also, typically, after what kind of stage starts the HHT passing?

Shooter I am the kind of guy who just wants to jump in and then when problems arise worry about them then. Not supprisingly, this time I ran into problems right away. I should have done what you said but now it's too late. I already have my razors and I am not about to blow another 100 bucks on an additional razor or 30 bucks on sharpening. I will practice on my old razors and shave with the new dovo until I get edges that I like. But now that I got the bevel setting problems and profiles solved it will be much easier work on the actual honing skills.

Originally Posted by MikkoK

Gugi and shooter,
thanks for the info. Actually what gugi said about microchips developing when you hone, surprised me. On the 6k, this time I did 40 circles and about 20 laps. At least there were no chips or wire edge. Also, typically, after what kind of stage starts the HHT passing?

Shooter I am the kind of guy who just wants to jump in and then when problems arise worry about them then. Not supprisingly, this time I ran into problems right away. I should have done what you said but now it's too late. I already have my razors and I am not about to blow another 100 bucks on an additional razor or 30 bucks on sharpening. I will practice on my old razors and shave with the new dovo until I get edges that I like. But now that I got the bevel setting problems and profiles solved it will be much easier work on the actual honing skills.

HHT will not tell you much, it does not indicate if the razor will shave well or not.
I personally like to use magnification to assess the honing process.

If you are jumping from 1K to 6K you may need more work on the 6K level, that should help. The larger gaps between hone grits the more work you'll need on the next grit. The only real benefit for more stones in closer grits is less work on each stone.

Keep practicing and let us know!
Welcome to SRP.

Originally Posted by mainaman

HHT will not tell you much, it does not indicate if the razor will shave well or not.
I personally like to use magnification to assess the honing process.

Right.

HHT can pass if the edge has chips causing a catch and popp on the hair with the razor's edge. You can pass a HHT at the 1K level without any refinement on the edge, just a set bevel. Like I said earlier too you can have chips and then pop HHTs.

I use a jewlers loupe when I hone razors, I can check the edge after each stone and see if I am removing the scratch patterns from the previous stones evenly. I can also see if I have little chips on the edge that I can't see with the naked eye that would make it pointless to progress past the 1K level.

If you already have put a micro bevel on your razor, then you should polish not only that but the actual bevel as well. My (heretic) opinion is that micro bevels aren't dead necessary with razors. They surely make the edge better but nothing that your improved shaving techniques wouldn't compensate in time. Of course there are other opinions on that as well.
Once you've learned to sharpen your razor you can always start making micro bevels but now it's more important just to make it sharp enough for a decent shave. Your razor doesn't have to be the sharpest in the world to make a good shave, but for a good shave your need razor that is sharp enough and shaving skills that take some time to learn.
For me that was the best point of it. Learning. If it was too easy then it wouldn't be worth of it.
I use micro bevels only with some of my chisels and even then i get advantage (if any) with woods of certain hardness.

The reason i put a microbevel on the filly was because the filly is so worn down that the bevel width is insane (5-6mm). So I thought I would thin down the bevel and set the profile on the coarse diamonds and then add a layer of tape to set the actual bevel (1mm). I didn't explain that clearly earlier.

I agree with you sailor that at this point the only sharpness that I am requiring from the razors is that I get a decent shave from the edge so I can concentrate on my shaving technique.

5-6mm of bevel is enormous, that is probably the result of using a lot of pressure which causes the blade to flex. Then the 1mm isn't really a microbevel. If it's only one or two layers of tape that is producing it then something is seriously wrong. The only reasonable explanation would be i the razor isn't hollow ground, but wedge.

Originally Posted by MikkoK

Also, typically, after what kind of stage starts the HHT passing?

For me the HHT is passing on every stage, starting from the bevel setting which I do on 1000 grit hones. The operational word here is 'passing'. I know how I expect the different types of my hair (yes, there are multiple kinds on my head, and even more if I include from other parts of my body) to interact with the edge at each level of my honing progression. One of the most common mistakes that we see here is that people think a HHT is a simple pass/fail test which succeeds when the razor is sharp enough. It really isn't. The interaction of a hair with a razor edge can tell you a lot about the edge throughout the whole honing process. Just as the interaction of the thumbpad with an edge, or the interaction of the honing surface with the edge, or the interaction with the water on the hone with the edge... These are all very useful tests, but they have to be developed by the person who hones. Some are more transferable between different honers than others. Your hair is different than mine (as I said mine has several different kinds, and they act differently whether they're freshly washed/degreased, dry, or wet); your water's mineral composition is different than mine, so the bead of water in front of the edge acts differently under the different surface tensions; your nerve endings are different than mine, so the tactile feedback you feel when honing a razor is different...
That's why hands on session with experienced person is the single most helpful learning tool out there - you can test the edge with your preferred testing methods at every stage, and figure out what you're shooting for.

As far as the microchips when overhoning, it's pretty easy to understand. Just think how the steel is abraded - it happens by the abrasive particles carving out groves on the bevel surfaces. Now think what is the result of this on the very edge where the two bevel surfaces meet. Of course that's just the first approximation with purely geometrical considerations, the reality is more complex, as the steel has underlying texture (the most important being the carbides), then depending on the composition of the steel, the kind of hone, even the pressure used there are several regimes of the steel being removed from the bevel surfaces... I mean there is a lot of interesting physics that happens, but there is no need to understand it in order to hone properly. In fact most people starting with me don't really understand the process very well. You can still succeed fairly quickly if you follow the advice of the knowledgable people here. Not as quickly as if you'd have something to compare to, but that really is up to you.

I tRied the Murray method and I found it to work partially. I played with couple different ways and found that if I combined the "conventional" method with the murray method I could save a lot of time honing. I used the 1k. Moved up to a 4k using the same back an forth method. Then i moved to a 8k using the back and forth.. Then a thuringian using the back and forth. Then I softly drew the blade through the edge of my thuringian box to get rid of the wire. Then I stropped it on my uchigorami (i always spell that incorrectly), and the stropped it on leather with red paste. Then green, then plain latigo. Finally i finished with a newspaper.. So, it was much sharper, faster than it would normally take... But, saying that.... I am definetlynot a hone meister... I have had razors professionally honed and can never get mine to that level... Although I have bought some shave ready ones that my honing skills definitely beat. So take what I say with a grain of salt... But what I have found over the years is one man's method for sharpening may not fit another. Pressure and stroke are subjective.

This is what the razor looks like



as you can see it is really worn down and I am not even sure if I can get a good edge on that anymore, but at least it is good to practice on.

Aaaaahhhhhh!!!!!