Thread: Belgium vs. Japanese Stones...

I hear that the Chinese stone cuts very slow. The reason I have been looking for a finishing stone was to possible look for alternatives for the 1 micron paste. Not that the paste is bad and its great in a pinch for touch ups but I believe that I could develop a stronger, longer lasting bevel if I can hone with stones with a higher micron and grit than to strop with a paste of the same micron particle size. Finding that right stone has been a bit of a hassle. Most of your natural stones are not consistant in grit. I almost bought the Shapton 15k but when I went to visit some of the woodworker forums the guys over there complain about how fast the Shapton loads. Many of them try to flatten them with sand paper or with other lower grit water stones and report that the Shapton 15k is easily contaminated by the other stone. Point is their stones work best with their lapping system for the long haul. Whether you go with the Shapton system or the Belgium yellow or Eshers or Japanese naturals I think they are all going to run bucks. If I'm wrong about any of this I'm sure someone will let me know.

Originally Posted by icecow

What are some of the cheapest but good choices for finishing stones?

I have a norton 4k/8k, and still need a finishing stone, but I should pump my $$ to other things for 3-4 months and take a break on the shaving stuff.

Before you splurge for a finishing stone do yourself a favor and buy an abrasive pasted paddle strop. They work every time.
use the 1.0 and 0.5 micron pastes. This will give you an edge that will surprise you.

The Chinese 12K needs to have it's surface "refreshed" occasionally to keep its cutting rate up. This is no different than most of the stones. Almost all will either have their abrasive particles become rounded (Arkansas and Chinese 12K)
or the surface will become "glazed" with debris. It is not unusual for me to lightly lap my stones on a 1000 grit sandpaper or the 1000 grit Norton. The exceptions to this are the Belgian Coticule, the Tam O'Shanter and the Escher, all of which are natural stones that use a slurry.

Hope this helps,

Originally Posted by FiReSTaRT

Kim, the 1.8mic paste isn't much of an improvement over Norton 8k with a particle size of about 2.0mic. The next logical step would be 1.0mic but you could even get away with 0.5.

Keith rates the 1.8 paste at 14K, which is a considerable improvement over 8K. Even the optimists don't rate a coticule above 12K. Therefore the 18 pastw would be an excellent choice.

Actually, the 8K stone is 3 microns.

Originally Posted by kimw

I believe that I could develop a stronger, longer lasting bevel if I can hone with stones with a higher micron and grit than to strop with a paste of the same micron particle size.

What's the basis for that belief? If you develop a certain bevel, the blade doesn't know how it got there. For a given blade, it's the physical features of the edge (width across edge, bevel angle) that determines the strength of the edge and how long it lasts, regardless of the abrasive you used to get there.

Joe,
Maybe his concern is based on many peoples thinking that the leather surface of even a paddle may slightly round the edge. I know the leathers I use are quite hard and it would take considerable pressure to force the blade down into the plane of the leather surface enough to make it round over.

I have even heard of concerns with the slurry or metal swarf on the surface of a hone being enough to deflect the ultra fine edge of a razor and not sharpen it effectively. While many of us are working to create a slurry others are trying to find ways to prevent it. This is where I first heard of kerosene or naptha being used on Belgian stones because it disperses the swarf easier.
(again, not saying it is righ, just saying I have read the discussion <g>)

Tony

Originally Posted by Tony Miller

Maybe his concern is based on many peoples thinking that the leather surface of even a paddle may slightly round the edge. I know the leathers I use are quite hard and it would take considerable pressure to force the blade down into the plane of the leather surface enough to make it round over.

That certainly could affect the sharpness, but not the strength or how long the edge lasts. In fact, I've read from knife sharpening sources that a skightly curved bevel might be more durable.

I'm starting to think that a slight amont of rounding over on a plain strop might be desireable. Every time I see a video of an expert stropping a razor on a hanging strop there's always a little sag in the strop. They could remove it by holding the strop tighter if they wanted to. Also, many of the paddle strops have thin support and a hollow under it, or they have a cushioned support. So, they seem to be designed to simulate the slight sag of the hanging strop. As long as the strop is not hard, sag will not dull the edge and it can remove any minute wire edge that may be present. This wouldn't be true of a pasted strop.

I have even heard of concerns with the slurry or metal swarf on the surface of a hone being enough to deflect the ultra fine edge of a razor and not sharpen it effectively.

I've heard that too, but my experience has been that stones sharpen much smoother with the slurry than without it.

<<< Also, many of the paddle strops have thin support and a hollow under it, or they have a cushioned support. So, they seem to be designed to simulate the slight sag of the hanging strop. >>>

Joe,
I have observed this too but on the TI and older Dovo versions I have seen it takes a hefty amount of pressure to actually flex these surfaces. yes, the saw cuts are there to relieve the wood but if you try squeezing one betwen youer fingers enough to deflect it a large amount of force is needed. Far more pressure than I would want to put on a razor anyway.

Tony

Originally Posted by Joe Lerch

...my experience has been that stones sharpen much smoother with the slurry than without it.

How important is it to get a slurry going on a coticule before you sharpen? Is it ok just to get it going with the action of the razor? And does the rubbing stone need to be a piece of coticule, or could you use, say, an old swaty?

Randy.. you probly mentioned it in your posting text. But where
did you get this..I have an 8K Chinese Natural stone, and it
is a reliable standby....These stones seem to be one of the better
bargains out there for razors...The temptation of a 12K stone is
almost too great to bear,,specially at that price....My 8K stone is
black, with silver streaks..If kept wet, and ocassionally planed it
is a good hard, stone for a fairly good polish....

jim winding down after 2 services...Sunday is not a day of rest in
Gold Bar