Thread: Belgium vs. Japanese Stones...

I always follow along with great interest anytime there is a discussion on stones and their merits. I've been on the verge several times know of buying a Belgium yellow but have gotten cold feet. The main problem is I see from other members posts that the current batch of yellow stones may not be as good as the older stones that occasionally pop up for sale on e-bay. Well what about natural Japanese stones? Any of you guys try them out? Are they not acceptable for what we do? I was at the japanwoodworker website and was looking at these stones
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/dept.asp?dept_id=13119 and was wondering if they were not in the same league as the Belgium? Pricing is similar if not more and the stone's honing suface appears larger. I realize they are not composed of garnet like the Belgium Stone but could they not get the job done just as well? I would really appreciate feedback on this.

If you want a nice finishing stone, go for a Shapton. You'll know what you're getting every time.

This is true but I can't resist the lure of a natural stone. And besides its fun to experiment. Occassionally I visit wood worker sites and although their needs differ from ares the goal is the same. To produce the sharpest edge possible. The main difference are the tools used. I think most of us own razors that are made of carbon steel and have some stainless in our rotation or vice -a-versa. I was wondering if the japanese stone would be to fast or to slow cutting on western style metal. Does the Belgium produce a smoother edge than the japanese stone. Both stones have a loyal following in their respective circles. I'm curious how well the japanese stone does with our straights.

Originally Posted by kimw

I was wondering if the japanese stone would be to fast or to slow cutting on western style metal. Does the Belgium produce a smoother edge than the japanese stone. Both stones have a loyal following in their respective circles. I'm curious how well the japanese stone does with our straights.

You're asking a question for which the answers are going to be totally subjective. Nobody has done a blind test or anything else that would eliminate pesonal bias.

Prof. Verhoeven wrote a recent article on sharpening esperiments. I think we have a copy in the document section. If not you can find it easily by searching under his name. He measure sharpness by measuring the distance across an edge. A finer grit has to produce a thinner edge, unless the grain of the steel limits how thin it can get. I don't think he found that, at least not with grits as fine as .5 microns.

The only other thing that affects how the edge might feel is the smoothness of the bevel. A .5 micron grit produsces about 50,000 scratch lines per inch. Do you think the shape of the scratch could affect how the edge feels when it's that fine? It's pretty common for people to feel the difference in sharpness when you go from an 8K grit to 12K. Some have also complained that a .25 produced edge is too sharp. But that doesn't tell us anything about the claimed roughness of comparable scratch line edges made by different stones, especially well above 12K.

I have 2 Japanese Water Stones and they work just fine, although I'm only new to honing ( I send mine out to get a proffessional finish then just "top them up" when required)

Mine are the King Brand 4000 and 8000 stones and they seen to cut quite slow compared to what I saw on Lynn's video with the Norton, although as these are the only stones I have used it's only a casual observation.

Regards
Dazza

Good question. Although I have several natural Japanese stones I have yet used them on str8's. If anyone else has experience with the natural Japanese stones I hope they post on this thread.

I've been experimenting with a set of Shapton GlassStones for a while (4K, 8K and 16K). I found that they were more "controlled" than the Norton 4/8, in the sense that the edge seems a lot more uniform at each grit. WHen I noticed that, I started using them by pushing straight down the stone (they're wide) and using 2 hands to keep the pressure as even as I could.

I was the most interested in the 16K. I have no water stones finer than 8K, only coticules and Eschers, and some barber hones. The 16K feels very different. It seems to produce a more pronounced edge, based on my thumb tests. In shaving, the edge also seems sharper than what I get with coticule or Escher, but it doesn't feel as smooth. Not that the shave is rough, but I seem to feel the edge more.

I did notice in the thumb test that the GlassStone edges felt more uniform along the entire edge. With the other stones, there's always a slight variation. It might simply be a result of honing straight across the stone.

Do be aware that except for those very pricey, somewhat random shaped stones most of the Japanese stones are not true natural stones. The King, etc.... may use natural or man made grits reformed into a man made base much the same as a Norton.

Tony

This website here http://www.misugidesigns.com/hammers.html is selling and example of such a stone that Tony speaks of. A very pricey stone indeed. I've been looking at the picture of this stone for a little while now and asking myself how deep of a commitment do i want to make of this hobby of mine?? I might wind up with that 2nd mortgage after all. The stone on this site does look tempting but my wife would kill me.

What are some of the cheapest but good choices for finishing stones?

I have a norton 4k/8k, and still need a finishing stone, but I should pump my $$ to other things for 3-4 months and take a break on the shaving stuff.