Thread: 4 hours on 3k, and still not enough

Great advices here!

I also recently tried to hone for the first time. It is not a simple thing to do, especially if you have never dealt with a real straight. As tekbow said, getting the stropping action right helps alot when you decided to hone.

If I were you, I'd probably call puma as Hamburg0 suggested than try to fix it up which might end up destroying it to the point of no return. I'd also get that second shave ready razor, classified is a good place to start. I got my first shave ready razor from Larry at whippeddog.com, he's a good guy to deal with and it won't break your bank, highly recommended for an alternative.

Sy

PS: Without bevel, we have nothing!

Ok so thats good info you've provided, tells a lot. First of all the first thing i think you should do is go to the classifieds and buy a shave ready straight razor from there.

At this point you have no context, no idea what shave ready "sharp" feels like and therefore can't adequately judge the quality of the edge you've got right now on the razor. It's ok, we were all there and we've all had a first honing attempt but, importantly, if you haven't used an atcual straight then you haven't done any stropping, the technique of which is a foundation of honing strokes.

I may have expressed my self in an unfortunate manner due to linguistic difficulties. The DE blades that I use, I break in two and use them one at a time in a holder/clip like I would use a real straight razor. Therefore I reckon that I have an basic understanding about what a shave ready sharp feels like... Right?
Anyway, that is not my problem at the time being. What I need now is to get the bevel set. Unfortunately I don't think a sharp razor will help me do that. I'm just too far from the goal still.
You might have a point on the stropping technique. I'm just afraid, that even if I get someone to hone my razor for me, I would mess it up on the strop. That's why I thought I would learn the honing first. Am I totally wrong?

My honest opinion here is you've damaged that edge and it's going to need a proper honing from a froum member etc. As you said yourself, honing a straight is nothing like honing knives etc and they're an infinitely more delicate instrument. there's actually too many variables to consider at the moment if you know what i mean, could be one or a combination of any number of things

Simon

I actually got contacted by a kind Norwegian from this site, who offered to hone it for me, if I send it to him. I just don't see a point in it, if it leaves me with the same problem in 2 months. Maybe I should reconsider.

I had a similar experience with my first Dovo razor a few years ago - just couldn't get that bevel set properly, and made things worse by stripping way too much steel off the blade. Lynn Abrams of this forum kindly fixed it for me. In your case, you might consider contacting Puma in Germany directly, looks like they offer sharpening and repair service.

How much damage can I make? If you are right, then what will an experienced honer do?

(quotes from two different posts)

When you say 3/8 we are assuming that this is a naniwa hone ????

I am also assuming that from your posts that no matter what anyone says you are going full steam ahead with the honing ???

So that being said,

Put a piece of plastic electrical tape on the spine, most of us use 3m but whatever is available, then make a slurry on the 3k use your lapping stone...


Now starting at one end of the hone using a fair bit of pressure start doing circles and go to the other end of the hone, stop, flip the razor and do the circles back should be 20-40 circles on each side, do this until one of these things happens

a.The razor feels sharp and can either cut arm hair, or pass a TNT
b. The tape wears out and you have to change it, then continue on with this until a. or c.
c. You realize that you really have no idea what you are doing and you send it to one of the guys over in Norway or I remember who it is in Denmark that hones

Google "gssixgun, honing, straight razor" if you have no idea what any of these terms mean, and watch the Norton 4k/8 vids and use one of them to learn what I am talking about and get a good idea of pressure and what is meant by directed pressure...

You will either succeed in honing the razor or wrecking it... but good luck either way

You might be putting a wire edge on it from so much honing.. Try stropping right after honing and then test the sharpness.

Originally Posted by bemil

I may have expressed my self in an unfortunate manner due to linguistic difficulties. The DE blades that I use, I break in two and use them one at a time in a holder/clip like I would use a real straight razor. Therefore I reckon that I have an basic understanding about what a shave ready sharp feels like... Right?
Anyway, that is not my problem at the time being. What I need now is to get the bevel set. Unfortunately I don't think a sharp razor will help me do that. I'm just too far from the goal still.
You might have a point on the stropping technique. I'm just afraid, that even if I get someone to hone my razor for me, I would mess it up on the strop. That's why I thought I would learn the honing first. Am I totally wrong?

How much damage can I make? If you are right, then what will an experienced honer do?

No no, you expressed yourself quite clearly, i understand exactly what you mean because my local hot shave barber uses these kind of "shavettes". So basically no, there is a vast difference in sharpness in a real straight and a DE blade use in a shavette holder. Some of these include a shavette being sharper and less smooth, made of entirely different materials, they have coatings on them which wear away and when they do the sharpness goes too.

What having a shave ready razor would do is allow you to compare the razor your attempting to sharpen as you sharpen it, to see the goal as it were. A shavette can't be compared because everything about it is different. Also, I should have mentioned earlier but why were you trying to set the bevel? you already had one, a factory sharp razor just needs refinement. You may not have even needed to go as low as a 3k to begin with.

I think i understand where you're coming from. You're thinking "but how will i learn to do this, if i don't ever actually do this?" This is true, but there's a point when you're ready for it. This isn't that point. Do you have a strop? A properly stropped razor should last way more than 2 months, and you won't have the same problem in 2 months because you should never need to go back to a 3k stone to refresh a blade anyway. A pasted strop can maintain your edge indefinitely.

You're confusing a few points here, which are, 1) maintaining a shave ready edge, 2) tuning up a factory sharp edge to shave ready, and 3) completely resetting the edge on a damaged razor. By attempting to do (2) without the knowledge of how to do it, you're going to end up having to get (3) done, when the whole time, all someone starting out with a real straight should every have to do is (1). Most of us learn the skills to do 2 & 3 by getting (1) right, be it thru pasted strops, or touching up on a finishing stone (C12k, naniwa 12k etc).

when you learn to read, you don't go straight to shakespeare right? you learn what letters are, then put them together into words etc. This is, believe it or not, like that. Honing razors was a major part of barber school curriculums back when barbers used "real" straight razors. So they obviously thought it was a skilled enough task that time had to be devoted to learning it.

As to how much damage you can do, well, if you keep going the way you're going, there will be well used 100 year old vintage razors in better condition than your new one. You could end up frowning the blade, wearing it unevenly, at an angle. all sorts of things which could be difficult to rectify.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

When you say 3/8 we are assuming that this is a naniwa hone ????

I am also assuming that from your posts that no matter what anyone says you are going full steam ahead with the honing ???

The brand of stone I am using is KASUMI. Actually I'm not sure about what to do. If all of you experienced honers say that I am sure to mess it up even further, there might be something to it. Still I do absolutely not think that another sharp razor will help me set the bevel on the one that I have now, which is the problem I am facing for now. Thus for now I am trying to figure out what i should do.

Originally Posted by tekbow

Also, I should have mentioned earlier but why were you trying to set the bevel? you already had one, a factory sharp razor just needs refinement. You may not have even needed to go as low as a 3k to begin with.

That was what I got out of different videos on the internet before I discovered this website. If only I could go back in time...

And I am still confused, 'cause some advice me to buy a 1k, whereas other advice me to stop trying, and focusing on the fine grits and stropping with another razor (or with this one honed by an experienced honer)

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Now starting at one end of the hone using a fair bit of pressure start doing circles and go to the other end of the hone, stop, flip the razor and do the circles back should be 20-40 circles on each side, do this until one of these things happens

a.The razor feels sharp and can either cut arm hair, or pass a TNT
b. The tape wears out and you have to change it, then continue on with this until a. or c.
c. You realize that you really have no idea what you are doing and you send it to one of the guys over in Norway or I remember who it is in Denmark that hones

I can get it to cut arm hair with parts of the blade, and cut in to my finger yesterday (ouch!!!). Isn't that at least something, or is it just me wanting to believe that I didn't made a fool of my self?

Originally Posted by bemil

I can get it to cut arm hair with parts of the blade, and cut in to my finger yesterday (ouch!!!). Isn't that at least something, or is it just me wanting to believe that I didn't made a fool of my self?

Wow, I am in that exact same situation. I did slice my finger (not badly) and I can also cut some arm hair with parts of the blade...I've been reading this very closely.

I suspect, and correct me if I'm wrong, that because we are not using a true bevel setting stone (3k for you, 4k for me) that it takes a lot of honing to get to where we need. Where an experienced person might be able to set a bevel on a proper stone in maybe 20 minutes, we may need hours. I would say that the razor I'm working on has about an hour's worth of honing to it in total.

Maybe you could try stepping up to the 8k and seeing how it shaves? Might be worth it just to see what it feels like on your face...

Originally Posted by bemil

The brand of stone I am using is KASUMI. Actually I'm not sure about what to do. If all of you experienced honers say that I am sure to mess it up even further, there might be something to it. Still I do absolutely not think that another sharp razor will help me set the bevel on the one that I have now, which is the problem I am facing for now. Thus for now I am trying to figure out what i should do.



That was what I got out of different videos on the internet before I discovered this website. If only I could go back in time...

And I am still confused, 'cause some advice me to buy a 1k, whereas other advice me to stop trying, and focusing on the fine grits and stropping with another razor (or with this one honed by an experienced honer)

Hi Bemil

Yep, can get a bit hard and fast in here but your confusion over the 1k stone would probably be my fault as i told you to take a step back. This wasn't meant literally so my apologies.

In summary, what i think the prevailing opinion would be on the thread is that should should leave this razor alone and take up our norwegian members kind offer to hone it for you. And also purchase a second razor which is shave ready.

You will then have 2 razors. One you will use regularly and the other to be used a a benchmark razor. As you learn to strop the regular razor, you will begin to see when it's starting to dull and stropping will not bring it back by comparing it to the benchmark razor. At this point you will have had quite a few months of stropping practice and will be ready to move onto a touch-up hone such as some form of 12k. This will help you develop your honing strokes etc.

Once you're getting good consistent touch up results, then look at learning to set bevels on something cheapo and already destroyed from ebay.

I understand your confusion and frustration. My own personal experience of it is documented on these threads. Please note it was something like 6 or 7 weeks before i was able to get a good edge on my blade. and a large part of that was going away and leaving the blade for 3 weeks before coming back to it. Please also note that on many occasions i thought i had a good edge, but didn't because i didn't have the experience to know.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/works...-myself-3.html
http://straightrazorpalace.com/honin...-happened.html

For a beginner like me, I find having a shave ready razor does few things for me
1. I now know how it feels shaving with a shave ready razor. And it is very different shaving with a shavette / disposable, I tried that too. Shaving with a disposable does make shaving with a straight somewhat easier, but that is not the point. The point is how the it feels when shaving.

2. I now know to some degree how a shave ready razor should be. I can do at least 2 tests with it: Thumb Pad Test, Shave Test. I won't even go to HHT. I can do these tests on the shave ready razor to 'know' what it should be. This put a goalpost somewhere in my mind when I hone. It also serves as a point of reference, you can always come back to it to compare.

Buying a second shave ready razor will not fix your problem. However, it will give you a 'feel' to how things ought to be. And I find having a goalpost / point of reference helps alot.

Trying to hone a straight without knowing how it feels shaving with one seems lacking in precedence, it's like trying to tune up a car without knowing how it drives. Hope I use a good analogy there. Using this analogy, if one who doesn't know how the car drives and has never tune one up before trying to tune up a brand new car, it is very easy to ruin it. So 'how much damage can you do?', I'd say quite alot, you could have a brand new razor and turn it into an aging honed out toe razor, now you don't want that do you.

What tekbow said above 'leaving the blade for 3 weeks before coming back to it' is a really good advise. It gives you time and opportunity to know real straight razor shaving, and heck, you could find out during that time that you can't be bothered with stropping, or you don't like it at all. He's not trying to discourage you from honing, just to delay it a little bit.

Originally Posted by bemil

I can get it to cut arm hair with parts of the blade, and cut in to my finger yesterday (ouch!!!). Isn't that at least something, or is it just me wanting to believe that I didn't made a fool of my self?

PS: You have to keep the blade spine and edge flat on the hone to get an even bevel, and btw, did you flatten the hone first?

Hope this helps but I'm not counting on it.

Sy