Thread: The razor that just won't get sharp or operator that isn't that sharp

It's also really important to polish the stone when lapping'. The Norton 4/8 is really rough and gritty out of the box and won't preform right unless it's smooth and polished.

My opinion is, it wouldn't hurt if you give it a few passes on the 8k side and see then if it cuts hair. But probably, the bevel is not correct. And, yes, be sure that the stone surface is flat and fine.

Here is what got me over the hump using just a 4/8k Norton:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/video...ideo-lynn.html

This clearly demonstrates that it is possible to set and sharpen a razor using just the 4/8.

Give that a watch, he's the best at what he does, and it worked for me.

Good luck mate!!

M

Thanks guys

I picked up a King 1k this weekend which I haven't had time to lap yet or use to add to my Norton 4/8 and C12k collection all of which I lapped previously on glass and 240 grit wet/dry sandpaper. I also decided to pick up a DMT 325 grit 4x10 plate too hehe ! I figure the bevel is not correctly set and adding a 1k stone to my collection is going to save me a lot of time in the most important bevel setting department. I was trying to set the bevel before on my Norton 4k using circles and straight passes with heavy/moderate pressure but wasn't getting anywhere because 4k is too fine I think for the edge I'm dealing with. The edge is sharp alright but nothing close to where it should be judging by gssixgun's one stone hone vid where he pops arm hairs off from the King 1k. I'm going to aim for that before moving up to 4/8/12k this time.

So I'm thinking I'll do the heavy work on the 1k and get the bevel set obviously. Pop some arm hairs off as my guide then move to Norton 4k. How do I know when to move to 8k then 12k?

It will not be easy to pop hairs after the 1k stone. And, it depends from stone to stone. With a hard amakusa (even the yellow-orange colored ones) it's piece of cake, but with a king 1k, it's difficult. After the bevel is set, go to the 4k. After a few passes on the 4k, go to the 8k. You are just removing the scratches of the 1k stone, and it's a thin layer. There is no need for hundreds of passes, for the man made hones at least. And, the same for the 8k-12k progression. On your C12k you will need more time honing since it's much slower. If you have a microscope, or even a cheap loupe, you can check the scratch pattern, it will be helpful if you re not sure when you have to move to the next stone.

Originally Posted by Slartibartfast

Without seeing the razor in person, I am goign to say your bevel is not set.

Are you using circles or the half x/japanese/whatever strokes?

Do you have some type of lapping plate or diamond plate you can use to raise a slurry for the initial bevel set?

Unless it is too late, I would tape the spine so you do not flatten the spine into oblivion while learning.

- - - I am a novice at this too and having problems getting my blade to cut hairs effortlessly. I just want to make a comment on taping the spine. I think the spine is there not just as a backbone of the razor, but it has a practical purpose and that is to set and maintain the bevel when sharpening. That means that if you remove metal from the cutting edge then you must also remove metal from the spine. If they have not been done to equal effect, then you have changed the bevel angle. Therefore taping the spine is a no-no. As you sharpen, the thickness of the spine should also decrease over time. This is my own theory; if someone knows differently, then please advise.

- - - As for my own problems in sharpening, it may be that I have not yet achieved the desired effect, whatever that is. I try to sharpen in an X fashion on a 4000/8000 stone and I can see the metal being removed, but things don't seem to improve.

- - - It is strange to me that the science of sharpening saws, especially cross-cut saws is quite precise and calls for certain angles to be set within definite tolerances, but for razors the facts are larglely controversial and only Gillette Co. knows for sure, but they're not telling. It would be helpful if somebody in a University setting with access to a microscope would publish some before and after photos of a razor blade being sharpened on a stone and also the stropping.

- - - In addition, I question the practice of "stropping". Why is it done with the cutting edge trailing ? And what exactly is this supposed to accomplish - remove burrs ? - and why can't that be done on your 8000 stone rather than a leather strap or newspaper? I suspect it is mostly a matter of convenience.

Originally Posted by Barry2

- - - I am a novice at this too and having problems getting my blade to cut hairs effortlessly. I just want to make a comment on taping the spine. I think the spine is there not just as a backbone of the razor, but it has a practical purpose and that is to set and maintain the bevel when sharpening. That means that if you remove metal from the cutting edge then you must also remove metal from the spine. If they have not been done to equal effect, then you have changed the bevel angle. Therefore taping the spine is a no-no. As you sharpen, the thickness of the spine should also decrease over time. This is my own theory; if someone knows differently, then please advise.

- - - As for my own problems in sharpening, it may be that I have not yet achieved the desired effect, whatever that is. I try to sharpen in an X fashion on a 4000/8000 stone and I can see the metal being removed, but things don't seem to improve.

- - - It is strange to me that the science of sharpening saws, especially cross-cut saws is quite precise and calls for certain angles to be set within definite tolerances, but for razors the facts are larglely controversial and only Gillette Co. knows for sure, but they're not telling. It would be helpful if somebody in a University setting with access to a microscope would publish some before and after photos of a razor blade being sharpened on a stone and also the stropping.

- - - In addition, I question the practice of "stropping". Why is it done with the cutting edge trailing ? And what exactly is this supposed to accomplish - remove burrs ? - and why can't that be done on your 8000 stone rather than a leather strap or newspaper? I suspect it is mostly a matter of convenience.

Where to begin...

I think I'll just mention the taping question as I'm on my phone and my thumb will fall off if I type answers to everything.

Tape: not a no-no, just a personal preference. There is lots of debate on this if you want to look it up, but truth is if Glen sends me a razor honed with one layer of tape, and I dont want to hone with tape, it will simply take a handful of strokes to make that adjustment. Not as big a deal as you may think. And very helpful for new honers to not take unnecessary metal off their spines.

As to the other stuff, I'd do a lot of reading in the "honing" and "stropping" sections of the forum...the answers you seek lie there

Regarding taping: some folks use tape, some don't. There is no right/wrong answer on that one. Personally I use tape when I feel that it is needed. Just be consistent. If you use tape on a razor to set the bevel and hone this time around, use tape again next time as well. Otherwise you'll be playing duelling bevels and wasting time, energy, and steel. Compare the videos prepared by respected honemeisters and you'll find different approaches taken by the best of the best.

There are high-magnification photos of razor edges kicking around in the forum somewhere, but I can't recall where.

If you strop with the cutting edge leading, I suspect you will go through an awful lot of strops. Also, stropping is not necessary immediately post-honing. You can (and I suspect most do) go straight from your finishing stone to your shave sans strop.

Originally Posted by Barry2

- - - I am a novice at this too and having problems getting my blade to cut hairs effortlessly. I just want to make a comment on taping the spine. I think the spine is there not just as a backbone of the razor, but it has a practical purpose and that is to set and maintain the bevel when sharpening. That means that if you remove metal from the cutting edge then you must also remove metal from the spine. If they have not been done to equal effect, then you have changed the bevel angle. Therefore taping the spine is a no-no. As you sharpen, the thickness of the spine should also decrease over time. This is my own theory; if someone knows differently, then please advise.

- - - As for my own problems in sharpening, it may be that I have not yet achieved the desired effect, whatever that is. I try to sharpen in an X fashion on a 4000/8000 stone and I can see the metal being removed, but things don't seem to improve.

- - - It is strange to me that the science of sharpening saws, especially cross-cut saws is quite precise and calls for certain angles to be set within definite tolerances, but for razors the facts are larglely controversial and only Gillette Co. knows for sure, but they're not telling. It would be helpful if somebody in a University setting with access to a microscope would publish some before and after photos of a razor blade being sharpened on a stone and also the stropping.

- - - In addition, I question the practice of "stropping". Why is it done with the cutting edge trailing ? And what exactly is this supposed to accomplish - remove burrs ? - and why can't that be done on your 8000 stone rather than a leather strap or newspaper? I suspect it is mostly a matter of convenience.

First of all, on most of my razors that I use for years, and they weren't new when I bought them, the spine is the place I see the wear of the razor, it's thinner (the width of the razor stays almost the same, for the edge). I compared them with a new razor of the same type.
You can shave with a sharp instrument that the edge has an angle of 40 degrees or more. And, in that case it doesn't pass the thumb pad test but still can shave exactly like a razor, with good honing (and steel, heat treatment etc).
The basic question if the edge isn't improving after the 4/8k stones are, is the stone completely flat? After that it's about trial and error. Flattening the stone is also part of the trial and error. The count of the passes of the razor on each stone, the pressure and many more factors.
Regarding stropping, I also don't completely understand how it works, but it works.
You can use strops and many pastes to accomplish the 8k stone step. An 8k stone is like a 2-3 micron paste in particles size. Theoretically, you can start from 15 micron pastes down to 0.5, and shave without the use of stones. I haven't tried it, but it will work.

90% of honing is on the 1K stone, that is the most important step, everything else is just smoothing out the sharp edge and adding a tiny bit of extra UMPFH!

Do not go past the 8K level until you can shave WONDERFULLY of it, then use finishing stones...

I only go from the 4K to the 8K when I shave leg hair half length and it cuts through without catching on the hair.
When I go to the 8K if black Swarf builds up on the 8K STOP and go back to the 4K.
Black swarf shouldn't build on the 8K if you did the 4K job.
when on the 8K only make twenty strokes at a time, SUPER LIGHTLY and make sure your elbow is hiked up HIGH or your tip will be duller than the rest of the blade.

strop on leather 100 passes and test shave.
Not good enough? Move to the 8K again and do half the strokes of before.
Strop
Repeat.

After two or three test shaves, if it's not good enough you will need to go back to the 4K or worse the 1K.

If you need help, PM me, I always use the 4/8K Norton, it's priceless.


Once you can do that all the time then take out your 12K hones.