Thread: With regard to the finished edge shaving sensation.

Also, keep in mind different grinds have different feeling. A wedge or near wedge seems to be very smooth and quiet while a hollow type will give more feedback when you shave. Having a sensation doesn't mean there is any problem and trying to hone a razor to produce one that shaves with absolutely no sensation can be counter productive. Most razors that give that effect are the special few and I've never thought you could hone those qualities into one. It's something innate to those select razors. You can come close, very close but it's not the same.

Joe, like RGC, I find the sensation you describe familiar, and similarly puzzling. As you already see, there's lots of opinion here, so my comments are strictly my own experience - I'm not qualified to dispense 'wisdom'.

Skin/beard variation aside, the edge feel you describe is like my first smooth edge from a stone (not a pasted strop). It was done by the honorable Riooso on an obscenely expensive asagi. I told him I prioritized smoothness over ultimate keenness. The edge delivered just baffled me. It didn't lop a hanging hair without cheating. It didn't feel sharp against the skin. It took a little forward pressure to initiate a stroke. It left NOTHING behind. It left no irritation of skin. A good wtg stroke was so effective I had to work to find anything further to do atg. So why is this 'not very sharp' blade so effective? I had to have one of these magical stones. A couple hundred blades on this stone later, and the phenomena makes more sense, though I expect others will see it differently. The smoothness allows me to shave better than a sharper blade. That doesn't mean a sharper blade can't be smooth also, but it was clear my shaving skills, skin, etc. NEEDs that smoothness to enjoy a shave. That same stone can give nightmare keenness - but I don't enjoy the shave as much.

The coti wasn't an easy stone for me, but even w/ lackluster keenness, the smoothness was there. Its not the only rock that does 'smooth' well, and there are many techniques for pulling more keenness from the coti. Lately, the keenness has been much better, but I can almost always improve the keenness on another rock. The issue for those of us hooked on smooth, is to retain that smoothness as we get better on getting the keenness. In the right hands, the right coti will deliver both with authority. A few edges have gone head to head w/ the asagi for me - but they're the exception. From a number of guys, I keep hearing variations of 'yeah that rock gives amazing keenness, but I take it to a coti or escher/thuri to bring the smoothness back that I like'. Speaking only for myself, this makes me pay attention to discussion of honing techniques that pull more keenness from a coti, and more smoothness from other stones. My particular thuringian is incapable of 'harsh', and I suspect its one of the normal attributes for this kind of stone.

With your current setup (coti), you may wish to bird-dog the threads about getting more keenness from that rock (mineral oil & other surface treatments for finishing). I don't think you'll need to worry about additional keenness taking away the beloved smooth feel.

I've got a coticule that I use as a finishing stone and it makes a smooth edge that sounds like what you're describing, extremely smooth but doesn't feel sharp at all. It's definitely a different kind of sensation when compared to edges produced by other finishing stones. I found that when using a razor that's been finished on my coti that it allows me to angle the blade for a more aggressive shave while not irritating my skin which is why I don't have to go ATG on my neck to get it smooth enough.

You guys might want to test razors vs edges


ie:

I doubt any stone can give a better smoother feeling edge to a heavy Sheffield then a good select grade Coticule

I doubt that on most of the American steels that a Shapton set can be beat

I doubt that on TI's, Friodurs, Revisors, Wackers and many other customs and newer harder steels that a Naniwa set can be beat

I doubt that on many of the Solingen steels that an Escher or good quality Thuringen can be beat

I doubt that on the Swedish razors that I have ever found a sweeter edge then the PHIG in my stable provides

I also am pretty sure that on the Kamisori's I have honed I haven't found anything that can even come close to how smooth and sharp as a quality Nakayma has given me


Does this mean that you have to own all these to get good shaves ???? NOPE but it does mean that there is a ton of options that do need to be explored quite a bit, before making general statements about the "Best Finisher"

Any of these finishers are more than capable, but calling one the best is a bit harder then you think...

I have said this before and recieved a ton of flak for it...But I don't even think I have scratched the surface of learning each hone until I have put about 100 razors across it on all different types steels and grinds..

I am right now in the process of testing a new set of hones, after 10 razors I still haven't dialed in an edge that I consider "good enough" So are the hones bad or have I just not learned enough about their secrets yet ?????

Havnt read all replies on your post so if I'm repeating anything then apologies. I'd say you edge isn't 100% ready. IMO the shave off for example a naniwa ss vs a coticule (after stropping) isn't any different. The big differences for me are that you can over do the edge on a naniwa ss with too many laps make the shave very harsh, whereas on a coticule this is not the case, more laps is just more laps the edge will keep and give a lovely buttery shave.

I think you just can't get that shave ready finish on the coticule, but theres no shame in that it's difficult and takes practice. I have a set of naniwa ss and a la petit lance coticule. I can get I lovely shave off the 12k ss and although 'shave ready' off the coticule I still can't get the lovely buttery finish I know you can get on a coticule.

Thetalai, I'm so far from a coti expert you can see the curvature of the earth. I write 'cause I've poured so much time into it, and have experience w/ a VERY fast cutting LPB. My LPB finishes are a) not as keen as others more skilled, or blades from other stones, and b) they're not quite as smooth as the edges from other, slower cotis. I still love that LPB for its ability to sharpen an edge to an 8k level. Beyond than, I'll switch to a slower coti or to another stone altogether. Some of the guys on what used to be coticule.be mentioned that the lpb is not one of the easier veins to get a good finish with.

Also, the honorable Gary Haywood (also a wonderful Brit) has written about the added keenness of a few (I think he said 6) strokes on the SS12k after a coticule. More than that, and he mentioned losing the coti smoothness.

You have some heavy hitter coti users near you. Look up/pm Tat2ralphy and Gary Haywood. 'Both gentlemen and both a pleasure to interact with, and both VERY skilled on those rocks.

I was actually speaking to Gary the other day! We were also talking about LPB and how hard it is to really get an edge, I am a total novice on coticules and even Gary said he can still struggle on it..........no hope for the rest of us then! Gary doesn't even use the 12k any more, shaving straight off the coti.

The only thing easing my frustration of not being able to nail the coticule edge (shaving with a razor after Gary has honed on coticule doesn't help!) is that going back and using the naniwa ss is soooo easy!

I'll give Tat2ralphy ashout thanks for the heads up.

Keep practising, I will!

I think, it's safe to say the best stone in the world for any razor hasn't been found yet but is out there somewhere.

There is another factor about how a razor "feels" when you are shaving. I speak from the point of view that I have a very heavy beard but also the nerve endings attached to parts of said beard, in certain parts, are extremely sensitive. I have used razors that are smooth but not the highest on the keenness scale that are downright painful on a couple of key part of my face. I strive for a uber keen blade because of this fact. I am starting to believe this is the one reason there are so many different points of view about how a razor is shaving. For me, when I have honed and sought out razors honed on just a Coticule and they just do not meet my "keenness" threshold.


Take Care,
Richard