Thread: With regard to the finished edge shaving sensation.

I put this in the honing forum,because that's where the pulling would originate, and my question is skewed in the direction of the hones, and honing. I have two razors finished by professionals. Both feel exceptionally sharp, and deliver great shaves ofc. Although in different ways. While my razors that I hone seem to produce a mild sensation of "positive contact" I suppose, before the hair is severed. My final stone is a coticule, and I've read about the coticule shave being different from some other stones results. My thing is, it's a very comfortable feeling, but not effortless wiping away of whiskers. It takes a bit of pressure with a light blade, although nothing hard enough to create razor burn or discomfort. Just a little more pressure than with the pro honed blades. I know they are going higher in grit than what my coticules probably are. Anyways, does this sound like I'm not done? Or does this sound like a typical coticule edge? Comfortable, but not blade weight only. I don't know...I hope I'm getting the description across well enough. It's not uncomfortable pulling, and it gets every whisker, but it's not a squeegee effect either. No issues with against the grain passes either. Which I've kinda been using as my ultimate sharpness test. If it won't go against the grain without catching, I figure it needs more work. Typical 30x, TPT, HHT, etc. are all beyond me. I've tried but I just don't see any obvious differences in microscopic bevel images besides the condition of the edge(chips,etc.). A scratch is a scratch is a scratch as far as my eyes can tell.

I have had the sensation you describe when I started. What made the difference for me was the pressure when honing, I learned no matter what stone you are finishing with the less pressure the better. My best edges come from using almost negative pressure of the weight of the blade when finishing. Then a proper stropping regiment refines it that much better, I found doing 60 laps canvas, 30 on cowhide, then 100 on horsehide works for me. With how many different variables that can go into honing and stropping experimenting is the best thing you can do.

If you need to apply pressure at all your edge isn't shave ready. To tell you the truth using a Norton 8K you should be able to get a shave where no pressure is needed on the razor. Using a higher grit as a crutch should not be the goal. extract the max from the lower grit before going on to a higher one.

With many razors even when proper sharp you can feel the edge working on your skin. That doesn't mean pulling or discomfort of any kind just a sensation. However, there are razors that will shave with no sensation at all and they are the special ones.

Well yeah I guess that's what I'm getting at. It's not really a pulling sensation...It's just a sensation, and quite comfortable. But it's not like Sham's blade that just wipes the hairs off either. I might just have to start sending razors to people. lol. I'm to a point where I don't trust my own ability to discern good from bad. But ok, it's not done yet. Thanks! I don't use the higher grits as a crutch anymore really. I take the blade to where I can shave with it on the 8k, shave, strop, then come back to a coticule to see if I can improve it any more. I'll return to the 4/8 pyramids, and see what that yields. But just for me, the differences are so miniscule, so subtle, that I'm trying to pinpoint that improvement, while ensuring I'm not working backwards. I don't have that thing happen where the edge was good and now it's bad. If it's good it stays good, I'm just not sure it's getting better or staying the same.

Mack, you're right, stropping is king. But that's not what I'm trying for friend. I want an edge that doesn't NEED improvement through 160 laps of whatever material a person chooses. And you're wrong, experimentation is about the worst way in the world a person could become proficent at any new skill. If that were true, they wouldn't need to teach addition before multiplication, basic math before algebra, and algebra before trig. There must be a solid grasp of basic concepts, prior to experimentation. Without an expert to verify that what a person thinks is in line with basic concepts, all experimentation is likely to result in false/improperly interpreted results. Please take that lightly. I truly don't mean any offense. It's just my opinion, and just as likely to be wrong as any other.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

Well yeah I guess that's what I'm getting at. It's not really a pulling sensation...It's just a sensation, and quite comfortable. But it's not like Sham's blade that just wipes the hairs off either. I might just have to start sending razors to people. lol. I'm to a point where I don't trust my own ability to discern good from bad. But ok, it's not done yet. Thanks! I don't use the higher grits as a crutch anymore really. I take the blade to where I can shave with it on the 8k, shave, strop, then come back to a coticule to see if I can improve it any more. I'll return to the 4/8 pyramids, and see what that yields. But just for me, the differences are so miniscule, so subtle, that I'm trying to pinpoint that improvement, while ensuring I'm not working backwards. I don't have that thing happen where the edge was good and now it's bad. If it's good it stays good, I'm just not sure it's getting better or staying the same.

Mack, you're right, stropping is king. But that's not what I'm trying for friend. I want an edge that doesn't NEED improvement through 160 laps of whatever material a person chooses. And you're wrong, experimentation is about the worst way in the world a person could become proficent at any new skill. If that were true, they wouldn't need to teach addition before multiplication, basic math before algebra, and algebra before trig. There must be a solid grasp of basic concepts, prior to experimentation. Without an expert to verify that what a person thinks is in line with basic concepts, all experimentation is likely to result in false/improperly interpreted results. Please take that lightly. I truly don't mean any offense. It's just my opinion, and just as likely to be wrong as any other.

I don't think there is such a thing as a razor edge that doesn't need stropping in any way. You have to remember that the edge of a razor is so finely sharp that cutting hair is enough to dull it.

I want an edge that doesn't NEED improvement through 160 laps of whatever material a person chooses

My opinion is that an edge in need of 200 laps of stropping, hasn't been sufficiently refined on the stone. Do you have any thoughts on the OP topic though? I'm really trying to nail down this "sensation" as something positive or something negative.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

Well yeah I guess that's what I'm getting at. It's not really a pulling sensation...It's just a sensation, and quite comfortable. But it's not like Sham's blade that just wipes the hairs off either. I might just have to start sending razors to people. lol. I'm to a point where I don't trust my own ability to discern good from bad. But ok, it's not done yet. Thanks! I don't use the higher grits as a crutch anymore really. I take the blade to where I can shave with it on the 8k, shave, strop, then come back to a coticule to see if I can improve it any more. I'll return to the 4/8 pyramids, and see what that yields. But just for me, the differences are so miniscule, so subtle, that I'm trying to pinpoint that improvement, while ensuring I'm not working backwards. I don't have that thing happen where the edge was good and now it's bad. If it's good it stays good, I'm just not sure it's getting better or staying the same.

Mack, you're right, stropping is king. But that's not what I'm trying for friend. I want an edge that doesn't NEED improvement through 160 laps of whatever material a person chooses. And you're wrong, experimentation is about the worst way in the world a person could become proficent at any new skill. If that were true, they wouldn't need to teach addition before multiplication, basic math before algebra, and algebra before trig. There must be a solid grasp of basic concepts, prior to experimentation. Without an expert to verify that what a person thinks is in line with basic concepts, all experimentation is likely to result in false/improperly interpreted results. Please take that lightly. I truly don't mean any offense. It's just my opinion, and just as likely to be wrong as any other.

Without experimentation we wouldn't have the razors we hone, nor the computers we're conversing on. The only way to learn is to experiment in what works for you. We can learn everything factually through expert opinion but that doesn't give us the skills we learn only from experimentation and hands on experience. Basic concepts are important as a ground rule whith experimentation, but that was a given.

I respect your opinion, and politely disagree. If you care to argue the point, feel free to PM. We're off topic now. I'd be interested to hear how your foray into homemade synthetics is working out also. It didn't get a lot of traction here, and I don't really use B&B.

I can relate to your description of how a coticule edge feels somehow different than some other edges. I have been using a coticule for a while now and found that after I got it figured out and got some edges right that it had that slight feeling of a bit more resistance but still shaved great. I only feel it on the first pass and the second or somtimes third passes are so smooth that I almost think that its not cutting at all. I have even thought when I was shaving with that type of edge that it just wont cut skin, I know thats not true but thats just how it felt to me. I have shaved with sharper or keener edges but none have agreed with my particular skin and beard like a coticule edge has so for me I have found the stone that is a perfect match for my face.
Glenn C

Long story short: For the razors in question in this thread: inadequate bevel set. Score one more for the forum mogwai.

rgc58: Chalk this one up to my poor memory retention. I was mixing memories of good shaves with memories of these two particular SR's. I do prefer the coticule edge as well, but that edge is better than what these two were. I remember now.