Thread: Honing Epiphany (I think...)

Originally Posted by dylandog

Mp, you've been stressing the low grits lately, and often mention staying on the 4K til you pass the HHT. How does this apply to refreshing a blade? If you're refreshing a blade that no longer passes the HHT, but did, say, three shaves ago, do you start at the 4K until it passes the HHT again?

I don't let them get that bad. Generally I'll refresh on whatever the blade was finished on (either boron carbide for the sheffields or chrome oxide for most everything else). If that doesn't bring the blade back within 5 laps or so then I'll drop back one grit and try again. I don't think I've ever had to go back to the 4k unless I've done something stupid, the farthest I've ever had to go back was to the arkansas or 8k.

You're refreshing blades that pass the HHT?

That HHT is maddeningly elusive for me. One blade I got from Joe Chandler passed it, but after a few uses it didn't. It still gives a very close shave, with nothing that I'd describe as pulling, it's just a little slower if you get what I mean by that. For me, refreshing is trying to bring a working razor I once saw pass an HHT to pass it again.

But as far as refreshing razors that are already passing it, that's a level of honing skill – and sharpness standards – that I just haven't arrived at yet.

Originally Posted by dylandog

You're refreshing blades that pass the HHT?

Well, technically none of my blades pass the HHT. Not even the feather AC blades, not with my hair (the hair on my head is very fine and unfortunately thinning, the hair everywhere else was inherited from my mom's mediterranean ancestry).

Originally Posted by dylandog

That HHT is maddeningly elusive for me. One blade I got from Joe Chandler passed it, but after a few uses it didn't. It still gives a very close shave, with nothing that I'd describe as pulling, it's just a little slower if you get what I mean by that. For me, refreshing is trying to bring a working razor I once saw pass an HHT to pass it again.

At that point I'd be tempted to send it back to the hone. Maybe only the 8k side of the norton, but something more substantial than a paddle.

Originally Posted by dylandog

But as far as refreshing razors that are already passing it, that's a level of honing skill – and sharpness standards – that I just haven't arrived at yet.

It's not so much a matter of honing skill as it is laziness. It's a lot easier to give a blade a few whacks on the CrOx paddle ever few shaves than it is to let it get dull and have to hone it back up again, unless maybe you're a genuine honemeister instead of a post-count honemeister like me. Joe Lerch is an advocate of using the 3-line swaty this way; I don't have one but even using the paddles life has certainly been a lot simpler since I switched to using this approach.

Originally Posted by dylandog

You're refreshing blades that pass the HHT?

That HHT is maddeningly elusive for me. One blade I got from Joe Chandler passed it, but after a few uses it didn't. It still gives a very close shave, with nothing that I'd describe as pulling, it's just a little slower if you get what I mean by that. For me, refreshing is trying to bring a working razor I once saw pass an HHT to pass it again.

But as far as refreshing razors that are already passing it, that's a level of honing skill – and sharpness standards – that I just haven't arrived at yet.

If it's still shaving well, I wouldn't worry about it. I almost never use the HHT, so honestly I don't know whether any of them pass it. I just get them shavin comfortably. The type of hair you're using makes a big difference in whether a blade will or won't pass the HHT, and how it does so. That makes the test a bit inconsistent for my tastes. Joe Lerch said his hair is very fine, so his won't pass the HHT, and I feel certain he's very good at honing. The shave's the thing. If it's shaving closely and comfortably, all the other tests are superfluous.
Just my $.02

Joe

Couldn't have said that Shaving was the test any better than that!!!!

Lynn

My first stroke with the razor is a nose-to-ear stroke high up on my cheeks, and underneath my glasses -- this is a cross-grain stroke for me, but my glasses prevent me from going downwards with the grain, so I just slide the razor underneath the glasses and swipe sideways. A cross-grain stroke on your first pass isn't generally recommended but is necessary in my case. As a side-effect it tells me instantly if the edge isn't perfect (or at least as perfect as I can get it). If that stroke isn't up to snuff, then I stop, wipe the razor, and give it a few licks on the paddle before continuing.

Originally Posted by mparker762

That's exactly right. If you can't shave with the edge off the 4k it isn't sharp enough, all the higher grits do is make it nice and smooth. You should try the .5 micron chromium oxide, it's like wiping the lather off with a velvet squeegy :-)

I have to disagree there. A typical test for coming off the 4K is the thumbnail test, which can make a shaveready razor pretty harsh. I suppose you could shave with something like that, but it wouldn't be very comfortable.

The 4k is basically used to create the edge, not to bring it to its final sharpness. Unfortunately, polishing has been used in so many different ways that it confuses matters. To my thinking. polishing should not remove enough material to change the edge physically, but only to smooth the bevel by wearing down the scratch lines. If you're working with a grit that produces fine scratch lines it certainly looks like you're polishing but if you're changing the shape of the edge in any noticeable way, you're honing.

If you do sharpness testing as you hone, you will notice that each step to a finer grit will cause the edge to be sharper (thinner). In fact that's the way I decide when to move on to a finer grit: if the sharpness test hasn't improved since the past test and it has been improving, go to the next finest grit. I agree that polishing improves smoothness, but sharpness is what's really doing it. Of course you can't get sharper without also getting smoother.

Originally Posted by Joe Chandler

Joe Lerch said his hair is very fine, so his won't pass the HHT, and I feel certain he's very good at honing.

Thanks for the compliment, but nobody's razors pass the test with my hair- not yours, Lynn's, Bill's, John Crowley etc.

You may also wonder why I just don't use a hair that will work. To my mind, I need to test what I'm trying to shave, so why do that.

Of course, the shave is the only real test, but I sympathize with these guys who are trying to learn and really are just taking shots in the dark. I picture them putting a razor through pyramids , but how do they know when to stop and test shave? Without some test, call it a pre-test, you really don't know. So what do you do count reps? We know it'll be different on each razor.

So what do you do, take a bunch to shave with? Do you keep notes on each one? And if you only take one and go back to the hone if the shave doesn't work, do you re-prep each time. No, you need to have a reliable way of knowing when you have a good candidate.

And I bet you and Lynn, in fact, have tests but you just don't realize it. It may be the way the bevel looks or the way razor feels on the hone, but something tells you when to stop and shave. Or it may be you know that razor and you evaluate it visually or by touch when you first pick it up, and you have a pretty good idea what it'll take to get it shaving.

I can't do that. Maybe I will if I ever count my honed razors in the thousands instead 150, so I'm greatful for my sharpness test of choice which tells me when to try shaving.

I'm not sure I see the disagreement. I generally do some more laps on the 4k after I do the thumbnail test, so I don't have to worry about that. And I didn't say the 4k takes the edge to its final sharpness, just that it should get it sharp enough to shave with were you so inclined, otherwise you're stuck creating a bevel with a stone more suited for polishing. It won't shave comfortably off the 4k, but it should nonetheless be capable of shaving. The higher grits do improve the sharpness and texture of the edge, but there's gotta be sufficient sharpness there for the polishing grits to work on -- the sharper the basic bevel the more improvement you'll see out of the polishing steps.

Originally Posted by mparker762

I'm not sure I see the disagreement. I generally do some more laps on the 4k after I do the thumbnail test, so I don't have to worry about that. And I didn't say the 4k takes the edge to its final sharpness, just that it should get it sharp enough to shave with were you so inclined, otherwise you're stuck creating a bevel with a stone more suited for polishing. It won't shave comfortably off the 4k, but it should nonetheless be capable of shaving. The higher grits do improve the sharpness and texture of the edge, but there's gotta be sufficient sharpness there for the polishing grits to work on -- the sharper the basic bevel the more improvement you'll see out of the polishing steps.

Yep. I guess we're saying the same thing.

I used to have razors that I couldn't get right no matter how hard I worked. Then I figured out that I probably just didn't set up the edge right. Now when I have a problem, I'll go back to the 4K or even the 1K diamond and set it up again so that the whole edge feels right. After that everything seems to fall into place. Whatever that does, I usually find that it doesn't take lot more work to get to shaving sharp, whereas before I was banging my head against the wall.