Thread: Cheap Ebay Razors for Honing Practice, Really??

humpf.

I can see this topic from a lot of angles.

Angle one: If you buy something, it is yours. You can melt it, burn it, frame it, grind it to dust, or urinate on it...it is yours to do with as you please.

Angle two: Learning a new difficult skill is much harder to learn if you must simultaneously learn how to fix the damage done by the last guy(s) failed efforts to learn or otherwise do the job right. It is like the old mechanics joke, "I charge 30 bucks to fix this, but if you tried to fix it already, I'll charge 60". In simple terms, honing a NIB quality razor (that is not quite shave ready) is a much easier task than repairing one that has not been shave ready in decades...and was perhaps bouncing around in a drawer for the last few decades.

Angle three: It hurts to see someone take a nice vintage 7/8 smiling razor that has some rust, and hone it to a straight edge 5/8...but that hurt is *MY* problem....oops that is angle one again.

Angle three.one: A "cheap" razor can be a lot of things. If we are talking about how I define cheap (i.e. lacking inherent quality and generally worth LESS than the price paid) then by all means, grind away (but again...it is a darn shame that someone is trying to learn honing on a razor that will refuse to take a decent edge). If we are erroneously using the word "cheap" where we should be using the term "in-expensive" then there can be several possible outcomes:

Outcome A: If the guy buys an old German Imperial razor for $10, and learns to hone on it successfully, but breaks the scales in the process (like I did) and then makes some modern G-10 scales that look all wrong, but function well...I would say he (or I) escalated the value in his (my) eyes and did the world a service, because he (I) transformed a $10 razor-like-object that had no value other than what a tiny handful of collectors might assign to it into a viable shaving tool that now regularly sees the light of day and is appreciated in use, are you really going to argue that this is a bad thing?

Outcome B: If the guy snatches up a bargain on a highly desirable (at this moment in time) razor like object (let's say a W&B that has some surface rust) and fails to transform it into a usable razor and cracks the blade with his ham-fisted efforts. We might be collectively bummed out...BUT

We really ought to realize a couple things:

Thing One: His destruction of this razor only acts to increase the value of the other viable examples that still exist in the world. That is, for every razor destroyed, there are fewer that remain...and they are therefore rarer.

Thing Two: We are no more entitled to that razor than he/she was...in fact he/she is more entitled to it since he/she bought it while the rest of us were sleeping at the wheel.

Thing Three: Perhaps these events taught the guy a thing or two and he/she now appreciates the skills/value of qualified razor restorers a bit more...and that is a good thing for those of you that do this for money (weather a living or just supplemental income).

Thing Four: The "value" of this razor is somewhat trend related. That is, today all the guys on this forum seem to think that W&B wedges are the bees knees...but a few years from now perhaps they will command far less as the trends swing toward extra hollow, more delicate razors that arguably stood a greater chance of NOT surviving the test of time because they are a bit more delicate and there is a lot less steel to rust before the blade is gone. Sure, either way the razor is an old item that has intrinsic value (or cool factor) because it is old...but the simple fact is, it only is worth what a guy will pay for it when you try and sell it.

Thing Five: If you get worked up about this, you have the problem...because you are allowing a person you do not know, that you may never meet, that does not give a rip about you, to impact your well being...and that simply is not healthy. I am reminded of the wrinkled Simmons razor I bought for too much (before discovering that it was badly damaged). I repaired it to usable, but had to remove about 1/8 inch of the toe to remove the wrinkle in the blade. In my eyes I had a ruined razor that now could be used, but had ZERO collector value due to the extent of removal that the razor demanded...so I went further and added jimping to the spine that added value to ME. Then some guy on this forum comes along and scolds me for doing it. I shrugged...it is mine! I did care what others thought, otherwise I would not have posted images of it, but I sure don't care that someone disapproved of my actions.

Are you still reading my rambling thoughts and catastrophic run-on senences? Wow, I guess I should apologize now

Originally Posted by fuzzychops

As an observer, I suspect the offensive comments are generalizations and not directed at those new to honing razors but experienced with related endeavors. At least that is how I avoid being offended here.

I do wonder where to find these cheap ebay razors. By the time I add shipping to Canada and filter out the obvious junk (and the conus only), I don't see anything under $50.

I have picked up a few around the $10 mark and less in good condition, lesser known razors. You just have to keep looking. Prices seem to have spiked a bit even in my short time here though. But i think the original point is a valid one. I treat my $10 razors with the same respect as my $300 razors, and not so much cheap, but more a bargain. I have seen Dubl duck razors with alot of hone wear go for big money, because of the name. I picked up a Bengall razor local for $4 delivered because of a bad photo, took a chance and it paid off, near no hone wear. I am of course talking vintage razors here. The sweeny todd type and other rubbish out there in my opinion shouldn't even be called razors or be allowed to be sold as such on e-bay. My reason for learning to hone was more necessity, there is no-one in New Zealand that offers a honing service that i know of. It has been a huge learning curve for me, and alot more to learn, but i can shave with razors i have honed. If i lived in America, i think i would send them out to be professionally honed. The difference in sharpness between razors purchased from members here and my own is definitely noticeable.

Originally Posted by mdarnton

A good friend of mine used to talk about "subversive" people--people who didn't want you to do well because it was a threat to their perceptions of themselves and their own abilities. I think it's a mistake to start right off by underestimating people. In my experience, most of the people I deal with are smarter than I want to give them credit for initially. An amazing number of them are pretty capable of learning on their own. Putting them down doesn't do a thing to help them.

After reading this post & a few other threads that you have posted on, I simply don't understand you.
I hope your path through SRP gets better with time & you begin to understand us.

Originally Posted by Grazor

But i think the original point is a valid one. I treat my $10 razors with the same respect as my $300 razors, and not so much cheap, but more a bargain. .

Aye, well put it is after all about that one single word "Respect"

Part of the reason I took up straight razors was avoiding the "disposable", wether in razors or other things. So I couldn't buy a razor that I know I'm thinking of possibly messing it up. Where I live, there was no one to teach me honing, so I learned what I needed as I needed it. I've been quite lucky on ebay, because I avoided razors that show issues beyond my abilities. But I always thought of keeping them not as something disposable. Some were at a very low cost like $15.00 and still would be with me if it was not that with time you figure out the size and grind best suited to my beard and lifestyle, so I passed them on. I hope they helped some other newbie get on their way. I think a good advice to the beginner is to concentrate on learning to shave, and learn to refresh your razor as an introduction to honing. Because it's also about self- sufficiency. And if you are lucky to have an expert available, use their services, and learn from them if you can. This hobby is about quality, more than speed and instant gratifications, in my opinion. But after some time you find you can efficiently get a great shave with a razor that has a history, and a better shave than with those plastic throwaway shavers. And that is a lot of fun.

I guess in the end it's different answers for different people. Opinions aside, it really is about respect and doing what you think is right.

There is another way around this issue and one that I frankly am surprised we as a group have not encouraged enough. As I was/am learning to hone, I picked up some “cheap” eBay blades to learn on. In the process, I found that some were actually in decent enough shape to be daily shavers. With the help of other members, they are in fully functional use. The others, while not necessarily garbage but serviceable were used to practice on. Now that I’m confident enough to work on blades of value, I no longer need to work on “cheap” blades. But what I have done is packaged them together and sent them to another member new to the process and hopefully he will do the same. If it’s a concern, and as a simple courtesy to our fellow members, we should try to recycle some good candidates to learn with. So if you are reading this and sitting on a few blades that could be perfect for a new guy to learn on, why not offer them up for that purpose? I read one person stating that they don’t buy eBay blades to restore with more than a mm of hone wear. Well, you can probably still learn to set a bevel on that razor even if it has some hone wear. It’d be great if the Member Sales had a specific category for these razors. With all of the threads I see about new guys learning to hone and buying “cheap” eBay razors, there has to be a sufficient quantity of these in our members hands to supply the next group of newbies. Its inevitable that some good candidates for restoration will be plucked from the market and will end up getting ground up on 1k stones. Why not minimize it by recycling some of them?

I would strongly encourage all new folks entering our sport to learn how to maintain their own razors. I believe in this so much that I encourage every one I teach to hone to some day hang a shingle and offer honing services. The more people we have learning to become successful at both shaving with a straight razor and maintaining one will continue to help grow our population and preserve this great art than so many of us enjoy.

Some of the problems we see with honing are that peoples expectations exceed their abilities and out of frustration the blame the razor or the hones or the process they are trying without taking a look at the real problem which is usually themselves. We see the same thing many times with people when it comes to shaving with a straight razor. In both cases, there is a learning process and in most cases most people cannot either shave or hone on their first or second or third try. If someone is willing to invest the time and patience required to really learn both, they can be accomplished in a relatively short time and fulfilled by a lifetime of satisfaction obtained from nice shaving razors and nice shaves.

A razor doesn't have to be a beauty queen to be a good shaver, but there are some definite aspects of a lot of old razors we see that make it pretty difficult even for experienced people to fix and use comfortably. As has been noted, when someone picks up an old razor that has significant flattening with heavier areas across the spine and bevel and on top of that the wear doesn't match on both sides, then you have a project that usually takes a lot of time and skill for an experienced person to get a razor shavable and is normally the kind of razor that new people find completely frustrating. If you add pitting into the equation, a new person may actually be doing a good job honing a razor and still be getting very uncomfortable shaves which causes them to continue honing and not recognize the good work they are doing.

We get a lot of comments about all the other things that people sharpen and that considering their skills and experience, razors should not be a problem. To the point of argument many times here. This usually is not the case as the angles of the bevels are different with knives and in most cases the spine does not come in contact with the stone which is required by the geometry of the straight razor. In addition, the edges of straight razors are usually far more delicate than most knives in my opinion.

So what is the answer that is going to please everyone? I'm really not sure there is one. In most cases, whatever you are honing requires a good bevel and the success of the rest of the process hinges on that. In addition, straight razor honing usually requires higher grits for more comfortable shaving again in my opinion than with a knife. Sure you can shave with a razor honed off a 4K or 6K stone, but the shave will never be as comfortable as when you use a nice finishing stone and and followed by pastes or sprays if you choose to use them.

So what would I recommend for someone wanting to learn how to hone razors? First I normally recommend that they learn how to shave first. This is really more important than it sounds. Every razor shaves differently or has it's own angle of attack or feels different in your hand. Many times I can hone a razor and get a very comfortable shave and yet another person especially with less experience will have trouble shaving with that razor. So when you try to hone a razor with a ton of uneven wear and a bevel wider than the wear on the spine, it may take a little different maneuvering to be able to use it successfully. This is not taking a persons talents or skills lightly or even underestimating them. The more you do something, usually the better you become at it. Having a positive approach is a great thing and I think we should try to encourage everyone at every step in their learning. Again success is what we try to help people with not discouragement.

The next thing I normally try to recommend is for people to try to learn to refresh their razors with pastes or sprays and then a finishing hone. This is a perfect place to start learn the skills and pressure required for successful honing.

From here, I recommend taking a razor in decent condition and trying to learn from the 4K or similar grit stone up to finishing and finally taking razors that need more work from the 1K for bevel setting up to finishing. Once there is firm ground here, I like to show people how to do repairs with both a 220 stone and a 1K.

These things are just my preference, but from doing hands on instruction with hundreds of guys, I have seen more success by following this path. Is it the only path? Absolutely not! There is much room in between all of the areas I touched on to dive in wherever you feel comfortable.

I try to stay out of the agenda driven areas regarding the knives or other tools as well as some of the brands of razors that come up in here, but would always recommend that someone start with razors they can afford and that have as little wear as possible when beginning.

Most of the razors I get in to repair show a lot of uneven wear on the spines and bevels. People are bearing down and lifting up razors at every conceivable spot across the spine and edge. It is a very rare occasion that someone gets it right on their first few attempts. It is the practice and making the mistakes that allow the learning process to take place. An learning comes from both failures and successes. If you are afraid of screwing up a razor, then you probably should not be learning to hone because no matter how much experience you have, you are going to run into razors that are just harder to hone than others and some that are so bad that they take the most experienced person hours and hours of time and a little frustration to get shaving properly.

Sorry for the lengthy post but I really believe that this place is all bout trying to help people to become successful at honing and shaving and not about picking fights over personal agendas or conflicting information. We are all different, come from different places and have different approaches to success. I hope we can continue to find common ground to help the new guys make this sport a life long obsession.

Thanks to the OP for this thread and advice.

Have fun.

I honed this razor (pre-hone photo) for someone last night. Not a pretty razor by any means but an excellent shaver.

Originally Posted by regularjoe

...I wouldn't be sitting on a ton of razors...

I imagine that's a real PITA.