Thread: Beginning to get why honemeisters charge extra for wedges...

I had a heavy sheffield take me 7 hrs to set a bevel. The same blade took Glen 3. I was way too quick to get off the DMT, being caution w/ a friend's ancestor's blade. There's a reason they charge more for a wedge.
One of your critical skills is learning to walk away, take a break from it. While away, new approaches come to mind, you go back to it fresh.

Originally Posted by pinklather

I had a heavy sheffield take me 7 hrs to set a bevel. The same blade took Glen 3. I was way too quick to get off the DMT, being caution w/ a friend's ancestor's blade. There's a reason they charge more for a wedge.
One of your critical skills is learning to walk away, take a break from it. While away, new approaches come to mind, you go back to it fresh.

This is encouraging! I have about 3 hours on an old Sheffield full smiling wedge with some very small dents on the edge. I take it out every time I mess with the 1k and put a good 15-30 minutes at a time. The dents are starting to disappear, but I still have a long road ahead. I'll break the champagne and the cigar when I'm done! Double O

If you have chips in an old wedge, you have your work cut out!

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

Are drop dead perfect pro honers on this site that charge $15 a blade,most take 15 mins to do,JMO,granted some may take a bit more.

If I were doing nothing but new Dovos this may be true, but such is not the case. Try working out a frown.

Originally Posted by pinklather

I had a heavy sheffield take me 7 hrs to set a bevel. The same blade took Glen 3. I was way too quick to get off the DMT, being caution w/ a friend's ancestor's blade. There's a reason they charge more for a wedge.
One of your critical skills is learning to walk away, take a break from it. While away, new approaches come to mind, you go back to it fresh.

What grit on the DMT?

Originally Posted by nun2sharp

If you have chips in an old wedge, you have your work cut out!

Boy, Ill say.

Bob

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Bob brings up a point here...

... Now comes the conundrum that has bugged me for years.. WHY ???

These razors were shaving when their owners set them aside, they "Supposedly" were honing using much the same techniques that we use, so WHY when you start to hone with that worn out spine (Wish they knew about tape) does the bevel not match the spine wear ?????? Why do we have to drastically re-set the bevel to get the spine and bevel to match, or grind down the spine and have a huge wide bevel now ????

Think about the why, I haven't figured it out yet...

That the spine wear and bevel wear do not match when you begin honing some of these old 'uns makes me wonder why, too. Theoretically, when placed on a dead-flat hone the wear patterns should match. It seems to me that there are a number of possibilities, or even combinations of them, such as:

1. Temper and Hardening faults
When restoring thick-spined old razors, it soon becomes evident that metal removal from the spine and tang is easier than from near the bevel, which leads me to suppose that either the physical dimensions of the razor or the way it was heat-treated have resulted in a higher hardness at the cutting edge than elsewhere. To get the same degree of hardness in the thickness of the spine and tang as in the thin ground part of the blade would have been quite a feat, and probably not do-able - the thin part would become too brittle. The way the heat treatments were carried out would play a part too - if dipped it is likely that the tang would remain softer. Presumably the harder steel (bevel) would resist the abrasiveness of the hone a bit better than the spine, giving that minor 'curved' or 'rolling' cross section through the bevel, similar to not changing tape on the spine often enough.

2. Changes in Honing Practice.
Some old manuscripts advise 'lifting' the back of the razor slightly when nearing the end of honing. I have seen a number of authors advise this, among them Stodart, and perhaps more famously Benjamin Kingsbury in his "Treatise" (1st edition 1797 and by 1821 in its 9th edition). Unlike Stodart, though, Kingsbury advocated raising the back of the razor for special applications only, such as for a beard of unusual strength and for very wide razors. Incidentally, Kingsbury also described the use of 'circles' while honing, first on one side, then on the other side of the razor - sound familiar...?! Kingsbury also advocates the practice of a cutler regrinding blades that have suffered injury to the bevel, and notes the consequent impact of the 'setting' pattern (ie honewear) along the back of the razor.

3. Use of the Pasted Strop
At one time these were advocated as all you needed to keep your razor in tip-top condition, making honing relatively redundant. Some of the more famous makers of these products and their accompanying pastes were Hamon Freres in France and Packwood in England and the USA. Some of the patented pastes were really quite abrasive, and Kingsbury notes that a distinctly rounded bevel edge could be produced by poor use - barbers at the time (pre 1800) were said to call such rounded bevels 'a fine round edge' and he argues, rightly so, that the edge should be flat. Most patented sharpening strops were in the form of thin flat (or cushioned) paddles - these could easily do the damage described above, so imagine how much more damage could be done with a longer pasted hanging strop, where the degree of 'sag' comes into play? As the edge becomes more rounded, it is necessary to allow a little more sag in the strop in order to get the tip of the bevel to contact the strop. This type of wear would not line up with hone wear. Allied with a softer temper along the spine, the spine leading on the strop and the pressure used by someone not expert in maintaining a razor could give rise to all manner of partial, rounded and secondary bevels.

4. Was The Razor Really Shaving When Put Away for Posterity
Whenever I see a razor that has evidently been put away, sometimes virtually unused, I wonder why. Could it not take and edge? Was the steel too hard or too soft? If virtually unabused, I suspect the worst. Obviously a good razor is/was a good tool, and would have been used over and over again, showing hone wear, regrinding to reflect changes in fashion and to compensate for damage and a fair amount of wear and tear that all carbon steel items exhibit. With a giant wedge-like chopper, used and abused to the point where it was no longer in fashion, could take the pasted strop no longer or was too costly to have reground, then yes, it must once have been a fine shaver. Or it would be in a more pristine condition.

I guess that there are many other things not considered here, like sleeves to protect the spine as were used with microtome razors, heat damage during careless regrinding, some complete novice attempting to perfect his own outlandish honing technique, etc, etc.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

That the spine wear and bevel wear do not match when you begin honing some of these old 'uns makes me wonder why, too. Theoretically, when placed on a dead-flat hone the wear patterns should match. It seems to me that there are a number of possibilities, or even combinations of them, such as:

1. Temper and Hardening faults
When restoring thick-spined old razors, it soon becomes evident that metal removal from the spine and tang is easier than from near the bevel, which leads me to suppose that either the physical dimensions of the razor or the way it was heat-treated have resulted in a higher hardness at the cutting edge than elsewhere. To get the same degree of hardness in the thickness of the spine and tang as in the thin ground part of the blade would have been quite a feat, and probably not do-able - the thin part would become too brittle. The way the heat treatments were carried out would play a part too - if dipped it is likely that the tang would remain softer. Presumably the harder steel (bevel) would resist the abrasiveness of the hone a bit better than the spine, giving that minor 'curved' or 'rolling' cross section through the bevel, similar to not changing tape on the spine often enough.

2. Changes in Honing Practice.
Some old manuscripts advise 'lifting' the back of the razor slightly when nearing the end of honing. I have seen a number of authors advise this, among them Stodart, and perhaps more famously Benjamin Kingsbury in his "Treatise" (1st edition 1797 and by 1821 in its 9th edition). Unlike Stodart, though, Kingsbury advocated raising the back of the razor for special applications only, such as for a beard of unusual strength and for very wide razors. Incidentally, Kingsbury also described the use of 'circles' while honing, first on one side, then on the other side of the razor - sound familiar...?! Kingsbury also advocates the practice of a cutler regrinding blades that have suffered injury to the bevel, and notes the consequent impact of the 'setting' pattern (ie honewear) along the back of the razor.

3. Use of the Pasted Strop
At one time these were advocated as all you needed to keep your razor in tip-top condition, making honing relatively redundant. Some of the more famous makers of these products and their accompanying pastes were Hamon Freres in France and Packwood in England and the USA. Some of the patented pastes were really quite abrasive, and Kingsbury notes that a distinctly rounded bevel edge could be produced by poor use - barbers at the time (pre 1800) were said to call such rounded bevels 'a fine round edge' and he argues, rightly so, that the edge should be flat. Most patented sharpening strops were in the form of thin flat (or cushioned) paddles - these could easily do the damage described above, so imagine how much more damage could be done with a longer pasted hanging strop, where the degree of 'sag' comes into play? As the edge becomes more rounded, it is necessary to allow a little more sag in the strop in order to get the tip of the bevel to contact the strop. This type of wear would not line up with hone wear. Allied with a softer temper along the spine, the spine leading on the strop and the pressure used by someone not expert in maintaining a razor could give rise to all manner of partial, rounded and secondary bevels.

4. Was The Razor Really Shaving When Put Away for Posterity
Whenever I see a razor that has evidently been put away, sometimes virtually unused, I wonder why. Could it not take and edge? Was the steel too hard or too soft? If virtually unabused, I suspect the worst. Obviously a good razor is/was a good tool, and would have been used over and over again, showing hone wear, regrinding to reflect changes in fashion and to compensate for damage and a fair amount of wear and tear that all carbon steel items exhibit. With a giant wedge-like chopper, used and abused to the point where it was no longer in fashion, could take the pasted strop no longer or was too costly to have reground, then yes, it must once have been a fine shaver. Or it would be in a more pristine condition.

I guess that there are many other things not considered here, like sleeves to protect the spine as were used with microtome razors, heat damage during careless regrinding, some complete novice attempting to perfect his own outlandish honing technique, etc, etc.

Regards,
Neil

Just to add to what Neil said ... how many of you have bought a vintage hone that didn't need lapping?
I think hone abuse was probably partly to blame for this too. The fact that people either didn't know how to keep hones flat,
or just didn't care would be something that would severely impinge on their performance.

And how many were used for cutting up cardboard boxes! I know I had a wedge that was way off. It was definitely sharpened with the spine off the hone. I am glad those days are BEHIND me. I don't think I will ever buy another ebay special again. Well until I see another one I really like!

A couple of weeks ago Joe Lowett sent me a Tillotson 9/8 to hone that he had restored and it took 2 and a half hours to just set the bevel, this was a razor in excellent condition. I've had eBay specials take me as long as 4 hours for the bevel set alone. Considering the extra time honing and changing tape, $5 or $6 extra is a bargain. The 15 minute complete honing session has eluded me and is, in case my unattainable, I do 6 nagura progressions at minimum.