Thread: My first hone result with pictures

Originally Posted by sunsweet

...But it is almost impossible to hold the steel of the razor at the pivot and hope to maintain the edge within micrometers flat at you slide on the stone without pressure ! There is no way a hand can do a 15-20 cm free translation in mid air while also keeping a tolerance on the vertical axis in the micrometers without applying some pressure. It seems the only correct way would be to use the other hand's fingers very lightly on the spine. This is what I did on the 12k but not well on the 2k. I would think that using only one hand is pure foolishness as you are probably resetting your work continuously. It would be comparable to dices crap shoot where you keep doing it and if you are lucky you stopped at a point where you had accumulated a few good numbers in a row.

Oh my no. It may seem that it is impossible but I don't use my second hand to guide the toe of the razor. When you read no pressure it should be read as no additional pressure than the weight of the razor. You should be using some pressure on the 1k - 4k hones and little to no pressure from 6k and up.

Here is how to build up the feel for honing. Fold the scales out straight in line with the razor. Grip the razor your thumb and index finger on the tang/shank of the razor. These digits will be doing most of the holding and some of the flipping of the razor. Wrap you next two fingers around the razor handle. If the razor's balance causes the toe to dip put your pinky on top of the scales, but if the toe rises place your pinky below the scales.

Place the razor on the freshly lapped hone, this should already be a little better. Now raise you elbow so that the razor is naturally held in the sweet spot for honing. In about 1000 perfect slow motion round trips this will be stuck in your muscle memory.

You have lapped you hones? If not you should, as uneven hones can cause trouble.

...a limited edition $400 Thier Issard

Wow that is not one to learn on. At least with out accepting that you are not going to do perfectly. When I checked this thread I was planning on encourage you to stick with it and learn to hone on the razor as you had already started. But I just can't emphasize strongly enough that this is not the razor to learn on. To find a pro to send it to check out the Member Services.

Which leads me to my only worry. Since honing is removing metal, do you have to worry about having removed too much metal on the blade over time. The more metal has been removed the higher you are on the forged metal profile. For a singing blade are you not risking to ruin the original character of the blade eventually ?

Yep you can. I recently got done with a razor that has had so much bad honing done to it that I almost gave up on it.

Jonathan

And yet it is possible and desirable to hone with one hand. You can see it done in videos and in person.

You'd be better off checking the classifieds here for a shave ready razor, or getting a dovo best quality to practice with. You may not ruin your TI but you will wind up with some undesirable home wear.

As the above poster said, take a cheaper razor and do a few hundred strokes on a high grit hone. After that you will start to get nice, even strokes which can give good results.

Michael

Hey, Sunsweet.
What the guys have said so far is quite sound. Thx, gents for your kind help.
There are alot of details missing about the razor - cost, maker & steel, but no photo, profile, grind. It sounds like this is perhaps your first experiences w/ honing? The guys have addressed that you don't want to inflict your learning mistakes on a costly blade.
.
Razor(s) for learning:
* not a fleabay or antique store rescue, or you'll be learning more about frustration than honing.
* straight edge, no smile
* full hollow or extra hollow - less time, hassle to see results of your learning.
* preferably middle of the road steel hardness (not the c135 in the TI). It favors the US & soligen steels
* comes w/ a shave-ready bevel, set by someone who knows what that is (this is big)
.
The learning: to borrow from Holli4pirating - go hone a couple hundred blades and most of these questions will go away.
You rightly see how its a skill of very fine motor skills. Much of the learning will force you to learn how to keep the blade flat in the absence of pressure. 400+ blades later, I'm still tunnel-visioned on this exact thing.
Bevel, bevel, bevel (how do I imitate Glen's voice in text?) This is the other thing I'm tunnel-visioned on. Bevels don't need to be good. They need to be perfect. While a pro can do this somewhat quickly, you & I can easily take hours simply getting the spine surface and bevel to be parallel. This is why the fleabay fodder is not going to be helpful for now. With a blade that has this operation done, your learning is now focused on actual honing, rather than restorative grinding. It gives you a chance to first get to know that a normal 'feel' should be when progressing through the stones. 'Keeps you from continually asking - I'm doing everything right - why isn't it working? With the fleabay 'find', Its probably not working 'cause you've either not got the surfaces parallel, or haven't ground through enough damaged steel to get to consistent, sound steel. If you start w/ a known, sound bevel - *everything* else is easier. If the bevel is not sound, the blade fights you on every stone.
.
So while the learning is not instant, its doable, and very rewarding. I hope to read another post from you soon about getting a good shave from one of your own edges. You'll be on top of the world, and I'll be cheering for ya.

When talking about the LRT and some of the other tests you might find this Vid to be priceless

ToxIk is an SRP member from way back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc

And to just say it one more time for Rob/Pinklather Bevel, Bevel, Bevel, it really is all about the bevel :

I stopped using pressure all together and just let the weight of blade do the work. I started concentrating on making my strokes as identical as possible going up and down the hones. To me, using pressure and knowing when to use it is advanced honing. If you do not use it correctly you are going to be doing damage. The pros and more advanced users can get away with using pressure since they have a better feel for the hones. Plus, it makes the work go faster. When you are trying to earn a living or just to cut down on time that makes since. I am trying to enjoy the ride now.

Originally Posted by Datsots

Grip the razor your thumb and index finger on the tang/shank of the razor. These digits will be doing most of the holding and some of the flipping of the razor. Wrap you next two fingers around the razor handle. If the razor's balance causes the toe to dip put your pinky on top of the scales, but if the toe rises place your pinky below the scales.

It is not so much how to hold the razor than how to free move my forearm like a conveyor belt without even a millimeter of up or down error in the movement that is impossible. The only reason that this is possible for you experienced honers is for the wrist to act as a delicate spring absorbing any differences between the honing plane and the minute errors the forearm is making. Feedback alone cannot correct sub millimeter errors it can only keep from deviating too much from what the wrist spring can absorb. As for honing with zero pressure literally speaking physically that is only happening with scales removed and the steel of the blade being pushed from behind the spine.

Originally Posted by Datsots

this will be stuck in your muscle memory.

I can fully appreciate the implications of this. Muscle memory is a very long skill to acquire. That is not good news. I know the capability of muscle memory very well it is how virtuoso pianist are able to do what they do. Anything that requires muscle memory to learn is not going to be even remotely easy.

Originally Posted by Datsots

You have lapped you hones?

Yes they were all lapped with my Atoma diamond 1200. I experienced some difficulties lapping the chocera 2000. The slurry would make a bond with the lapping stone after only a couple of 8 patterns and you would have to stop and rince both surfaces with running water before going on.

Originally Posted by Datsots

Wow that is not one to learn on. At least with out accepting that you are not going to do perfectly. When I checked this thread I was planning on encourage you to stick with it and learn to hone on the razor as you had already started. But I just can't emphasize strongly enough that this is not the razor to learn on.

Yes it even came with its custom wooden box and its series number is stamped forged on the mirror steel surface and has a unique very detailed spine complicated motif and I am using it for my first time ever honing. I could not find anything else to practice on. If anyone wants to save that limited edition Thier Issard from my unexpert hands you can mail me a razor for practice for <$20. I am not going to send my TI to any honing service. its fate is in my hands only.

Originally Posted by Datsots

Yep you can. I recently got done with a razor that has had so much bad honing done to it that I almost gave up on it.
Jonathan

You got me thinking about the physical shape of a razor. I think a lot of the empirical theories on honing could be explained by drawings of the blade of a blunt razor and at different stages of restoring it.

Originally Posted by gssixgun

When talking about the LRT and some of the other tests you might find this Vid to be priceless

ToxIk is an SRP member from way back

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYFsOP7rBc

And to just say it one more time for Rob/Pinklather Bevel, Bevel, Bevel, it really is all about the bevel :

mmm, that video is an example of a damaged razor with some pretty drastic nicks not a razor that has become blunt from daily use.
Those tiny reflections that he is showing are due to nicks. My edge is showing no reflections when illuminated on top of the edge with my mercury desk lamp.

Originally Posted by Mephisto

I stopped using pressure all together and just let the weight of blade do the work. I started concentrating on making my strokes as identical as possible going up and down the hones. To me, using pressure and knowing when to use it is advanced honing. If you do not use it correctly you are going to be doing damage. The pros and more advanced users can get away with using pressure since they have a better feel for the hones. Plus, it makes the work go faster. When you are trying to earn a living or just to cut down on time that makes since. I am trying to enjoy the ride now.

I think that is the path I have to follow. Thank you for laying the path ahead of me.

One more thing, you are using tape on the spine, if the last person who honed the edge didn't use tape, you are changing the geometry slightly. Going from no tape to tape is easier than the opposite.

Use a black felt tip pen on both sides of the edge and do one pass, then check with a scope/lupe to see what's really going on at the edge/bevel.

I would listen to everyone's advice here if I were you. I can tell you, as someone who's recently started to hone and can finally get an edge that will shave somewhat decently, my edge is still crap compared to an edge that someone more experienced can get.
In regards to two handed honing, IIRC Glen hones with two hands but only uses the second hand to guide. Speaking as someone who also uses two hands for the exact same reason as you described, pressure is something that you will have to CONSTANTLY be aware of. You need to make sure that your second hand isn't using any pressure...sounds obvious, I know, but it's REALLY easy to let your hands do their own thing instead of focusing on the evenness of your honing stroke. Your guiding hand needs to be like a feather, just hardly there, otherwise you'll wear the toe more than the heel and then you'll be wishing you didn't use your prized razor to learn to hone on! :P I wish you the best of luck. Learning to hone is a huge pain that is at times full of hours of backbreaking frustration (my table is low :P ) but at the end it's a sweet feeling when you get an edge that you can shave with comfortably!
Have fun!