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Bruno

What was the honing accreditation idea, and why did we kill it?

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Bruno
, 09-12-2011 at 12:12 PM (5045 Views)
Another oldie but goodie that keeps coming back from time to time, like a piece of sour salami. The issue itself is rather boring, but if you want to get an idea of the concerns we have to keep in mind, this might be interesting.

The idea

I don't remember who first came up with the idea. On a basic level it was very simple: Some people hone razors for other people. Those other people might not know whether the person doing the honing is any good. The idea was to set up a program where a panel of testers would perform blind tests of razors. Those razors would have been honed by prospective candidates. If the razors would be deemed shaveready, the honer would receive the label 'SRP honemeister' or something to that effect. We never got to the point where a name / logo was important.

Why accreditation is useful

At the time the idea was being discussed, Lynn posted,"I know how to hone." His point was that he didn't need anyone to validate his skills beyond himself and his many satisfied customers. And that is a fair point. But accreditation in ANY industry has nothing to do with whether YOU know you fulfill the criteria. Instead it has everything to do with convincing OTHER people that you can fulfill the criteria.

The whole point of accreditation is to provide a way for an 'unknown' person to be able to present some credentials when dealing with edges. For example, if there were an accreditation program to determine honing ability, a relatively unknown person would be able to put up a razor for sale, and anyone reading the ad would be able to verify the accreditation with a simple mouseclick. And he would have some level of confidence that 'shaveready' means that you can shave with it, rather than 'cut paper'.

Likewise, if such an accreditation existed, it would automatically gain usefulness if it was advertized with every sale, because buyers would learn to recognize it or look for it. And people would have a harder time to use the term 'shaveready'.

It's like certification of USB interfaces and the use of the official USB logos on cables and equipment. Any Intel or Iomega USB device will function properly when plugged into your computer. This is like Lynn knowing how to hone. People know he can probably hone. The accreditation is useful for the gazillion of other manufacturers which you have never heard of and of which you have no way to assess their products without prior experience. But with every device, no matter the name, you can have a good level of confidence that it will work as advertized if it carries the official USB logos. Because the vendor is certified by the USB standards committee.

That is the purpose of accreditation.

This exists, and is used on a daily basis for electric and gas infrastructure workers, companies working with sensitive or financial data, credit card companies, building contractors, etc etc. There is no reason why such a thing would not work or be useful for something like edges.

Why 'SRP' accreditation was not a good idea

As with any accreditation program, for it to be valid it has to be comprised of a panel of independent experts and industry stakeholders. Standards that are set by just 1 company usually do not gain any traction, precisely because the resulting standard is geared towards that specific company, and would give it an automatic advantage over competitors.

If the accreditation program was 'SRP' based, other shaving communities would just not use it. There is too much political rivalry and 'face' to be lost. People might be willing to cooperate with a 'Global Razor Honing Accreditation Association' (GRHAA ) because it is a faceless entity. Otoh, senior people of other shaving forums would not feel like bowing to a SRP Razor Honing Accreditation Association' (SRPRHAA ) .

Without wide acceptance, any standard body is just a waste of time and energy.

Why did we not want to be involved

Suppose we were the ones doing this. There are a number of legal problems we'd have to deal with:

  1. We'd have to incorporate. Because right now, we aren't. Any claims that would be made would have the potential to really hurt the owners, and possibly the admin (yours truly). From the little I know, mods are less vulnerable because it is understood that they don't call the shots. With an incorporation, the individuals are much better protected.
  2. We'd be dealing with money going back and forth, if only to cover expenses. That means official bookkeeping, IRS, and related annoyances.
  3. We'd be dealing with goods shipping back and forth. Loss of goods means insurance, and possibly claims. Ownership disputes, etc.
  4. People might not agree with their accreditation a) being denied, and b) being revoked. If this would end up costing them money (decrease in income, possible loss of reputation) they could sue. Again, headaches.
  5. We'd have to come up with licensing fees. As silly as it sounds, the corporation would have to be able to exist and pay for the lawyers (at a bare minimum) to keep paperwork and IRS filings in order every year, even if no new accreditiations would be made.


These are just the 5 first things that came to mind. There would be more.
We have thousands of members. The normal census statistics apply. Some of our (now ex) members have conned other members out of equipment and money, for mucho dollars. Some of our ex members have threatened us with legal actions. As much as I regret it, from where I am sitting, with the past years of SRP management under my belt, I really don't believe that noone would try to make life difficult for us in very bad ways.

It's not that it is impossible to deal with all these issues. But it would take up a lot of time and energy, which would take all of the fun out of this hobby. That is why I publicly said that I thought it was an interesting concept, but that it would not find a home here. I said it would be best if those interested would take it up as an independent project.

It's easy to say that something would be a great idea and why are we refusing? But few people take the time to sit down and think about all the things that can and will go wrong, and how we should deal with them. We were criticized by some people for not doing this on top of already running this site, but it seems that they were not willing to do so either, since none of them did
gssixgun, Lemur, JimmyHAD and 7 others like this.
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  1. JimmyHAD's Avatar
    The person whose idea it was being another Belgian fellow. Part of what killed it was his plan to furnish, at cost, a large number of Golden Arrows, or maybe it was Wapis never came to fruition. Instead of sending them out to all who volunteered to participate he insisted that he would correct any anomalies in the blades and re-scale them. So it became like Sisyphus perpetually pushing the boulder up the hill. IIRC ? Then again, maybe I'm thinking of a proposed honing contest that was another thing entirely ? Anyway, thanks Bruno, stellar blog post.
  2. Bruno's Avatar
    IIRC, Bart was one of the main people involved in pushing the initiative. I know he recently mentioned it in a discussion as an example of how we behave badly and how we don't want other people to be recognized as capable of honing a razor. It's interesting, since he also accuses Lynn of influencing honing discussions for his own profit. So on one hand he is still annoyed that we do not want to publicly judge people's honing abilities, and on the other he accuses Lynn of influencing things for profit. Imo those views are incompatible, but what do I know?

    Anyway, you are partly right. Bart was fixing up a bunch of Double Arrow razors so that they would all be (near) identical. It was a good idea too, for the purpose of making sure people had the same razor to work with. At that point we had already abandoned the accreditation idea. Instead, we were going to have the first annual honing contest. As you said, it took a while to get it going, and by the time the razors were ready, Bart was no longer a member here, or he was but he had been banned for a while, or something like that. In the end there was noone else volunteering to take care of the logistics involved, and the contest never happened.
  3. Lynn's Avatar
    Nice Blog Bruno,

    I have always believed and still do, that the more people capable of honing razors out there the merrier. Whether someone hones for themselves of hones for others, the key is always that the person honing the razor must satisfy themselves first. My door has always been open to help every person that I can make the journey and I am not alone in this. SRP continues to be a place where people can obtain and share the best straight razor information available. It has always been about helping others become successful in learning about this special art and in turn, those folks going on to help others. In my opinion, there is no need for any special recognition or agenda. The preservation of the art and the individual enjoyment of it remains the objective.

    Have fun.
    Lemur, avatar1999, Hirlau and 1 others like this.
  4. Jimbo7's Avatar
    I'd be interested in following a thread on a honing contest!
    Granted, I'm not volunteering for anything--be it honing for a contest or test shaving in one. Rather, I suppose I'm volunteering my interest in reading about it! Perhaps if we got enough interest going, someone may take up the mantle again. It would be fun to follow.
    As a side note, I could understand how guys who hone razors as a business may feel uneasy about a honing contest. What about an amateur honing contest? You could limit the entrants to people that only hone for themselves...to have them test their mettle against those the world over! Personally I think it sounds like a fun idea but I fully admit that I would intend to watch from a distance and have no interest in spearheading such an operation...but maybe someone else does?
    markdfhr likes this.
  5. Bruno's Avatar
    The honing contest would be an interesting thing. Ultimately it never happened. I think there are only 2 things holding it back:
    1) a volunteer to take care of all logistics involved in the double blind test.
    2) getting a set of razors which would be used for the contest.

    But you're right. I could toss the idea back into the honing forum and see if there is enough interest to get things sorted out.
    Jimbo7 likes this.
  6. hoglahoo's Avatar
    I tried offering testing and certifications of accreditation for a very small fee, but nobody took me up on it. So in my mind, you - all of you - killed the idea by not participating in my very inexpensive (relatively, compared to the revenue you could pull in later) program. So don't blame SRP - blame yourself.

    - Master Lee
    HNSB likes this.
  7. Hirlau's Avatar
    I worked in a field where " accreditation " was implemented and is sought after. Though good in theory, it quickly became a worthless endeavor. Used as a political hatchet by people who have no idea on how the job really works. Implemented over 10 years ago, it has yet to better the skills of the men and women that it hangs over.
    There will always be people who spend their lives telling others how it should be done; based upon good intended theory or written guidelines based on that good intended theory.

    If a man wants to shave with a straight razor, then he had better learn how to keep it sharp. I understand a new person entering this art, but after a month or two,learn to sharpen your own razor.
    I go to people like Max, Lynn, Glenn,JimmyHad, Sham and others here to learn from them how to maintain my razor. To ask them to hone a razor for me now (6 months into the art) would be an embarrassment.
    I would rather grow a beard.
    BanjoTom and markdfhr like this.
  8. Hirlau's Avatar
    Quote Originally Posted by hoglahoo
    I tried offering testing and certifications of accreditation for a very small fee, but nobody took me up on it. So in my mind, you - all of you - killed the idea by not participating in my very inexpensive (relatively, compared to the revenue you could pull in later) program. So don't blame SRP - blame yourself.

    - Master Lee
    I'm with hoglahoo; I have Microsoft Publisher and I will "Accreditate, Certify,Test, Promote or make you a Grand Master" in any art or profession you want.
    For a small fee, of course.
    seacaptainchris likes this.
  9. gugi's Avatar
    I think it's pretty clear what this forum is about. The expertise and help that's constantly provided absolutely free by all of our members with great experience both over the internet and in person is not matched anywhere else.
    We don't require memberships, voluntary contributions, or any purchases of specific equipment - everybody who needs it gets more than enough guidance and help how to get the job done with the equipment they have. I bet there are more people who successfully learn how to hone by just reading the site without ever registering, than those who register and ask questions.
  10. Bruno's Avatar
    The accreditation was not about how someone hones. It was supposed to involve a panel of testers, who'd shave with razors of which they didn't know who honed them (to keep the test impartial). The razor would be satisfying or not. Based on the total feedback of the various testers, accreditation would be granted or not.
  11. avatar1999's Avatar
    In theory it is a a great idea, but then you have to worry about people's feeling, etc, like was stated above. I know with so many different razors, things get complicated...you will not use the same system/steps on EVERY razor you hone. There truly is an art to it, and if someone is serious about it, they should try to hone as many different razors as possible. Then there is the problem that certain types of razors give a better shave for one person, than they do for someone else. There's so many variables, I think it would be a fairly complex "test."

    Just my 2cents worth
    seacaptainchris likes this.
  12. seacaptainchris's Avatar
    if honing is the art ,then it should include more than just razors.after all, you lay them on their spines witch takes most of the work out of honing .just an opinion.
    respectfully chris