you may be right sir:)and they could have all been made ther...but this is not the case...it was about the Filarmonicas.
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you may be right sir:)and they could have all been made ther...but this is not the case...it was about the Filarmonicas.
Dear Robin,
I did not intend to offend you and your belives and i am sorry if i did. Mabe you got upset reading it as I got upset reading your post...witch also lacks solid evidence...they did the no14 blanks ok...but there are so many no 14 and not all are the same on the face...not all of them are good let alone great.
It is just strange that blades of that diffrent a quality can emerge form the same place be it whole manufacture or just the "best solinge grind"....
...and a brand like that loved and hunted by so many to have a twist in the storry we get to hear only now....after so many years people searched the info out...it seems rater unlikely....
But again you could be right...you ould get the pleasure of a Fila in a sub 50$ blade ....but belive me...people would have noticed!!!!...there are thousands of us trying out new blades...
I am sorry i did not provide any hard evidence about this but we both know that "hard evidence" is hard to find these days.
I'm in this for the fun and i am not spending my time to bookmark and link every solid piece of info i come across...
This is just what i belive based on my experience...
I don't want to start a flame so i kindly ask forgiveness if i offended any.
...You tend get agressive when someone tells you your favorite razors you spent a heap of cash on over the years are not actualy what you think and they are the same as no name ones a tenth of the price...
Cheers!
Good morning, and thank you for your kind words. Much appreciated.
#14 blades look pretty much exactly alike.
Which is why over in the German forums (full of people from the area with relatives who actually worked in Solingen at the right time, and who also speak the vernacular) this has been common knowledge for several years. Just search the web for "14er Klingen", the information is all there. I just corroborated it.
It should be noted, too, that there are blades with a #14 stamped on them around which were not ground from the #14 blanks. I have, for example, seen a few 5/8 and 6/8 French razors with that stamp. The ones in the picture above, though, were all ground from Herkenrath #14 blanks. Which, incidentally, were typically ground into 7/8 razors, but could be ground into 8/8 ones, too, only the size was even less popular than 7/8. So they may not be exactly alike, but the basic features are completely uniform.
You mean vintage Solingen razors? They made millions. Just like millions of cars are being made today. You have a Ford Pinto at one end of the scale, and a Bentley at the other. There are some not-so-fabulous vintage Solingen razors at one end, and something like a Camel Rider at the other. This is just normal, given that prices varied like those of cars. However, if you think about the size of the industry, it also seems natural that a great level of uniformity was achieved at a fairly early stage, and personally, I seem to be missing a great many of the so called finer nuances. Then again, I use cut-throat razors because they work, not because I have a fetish. :)
Seriously, a friend of mine works at a University where they have these (whatever they are called in English) analytical tools for metal. Chop up some of your favourite blades, and certainly those about which you are in doubt, and I could have them analysed properly. I bet you you will see very few variations from the middle of the fifties onwards.
Shaving with a cut-throat has quite a few variables. I have received noticeably different performances from the same razor depending on the hone used. Moreover, I have seen similar variances depending on the preparation and shaving products used with the same razor off the same hone, which is why I keep telling beginners to invest in high quality shaving products rather than some brand name.
Just for the record, if you think your argument through properly, ie noticeable variances appearing across the same line of mass produced (and Filarmonica razors obviously were mass produced, otherwise there would not be so many around still), this would mean that the more people try them, the more heterogeneous their verdicts would be. But they are not. To me, it seems far more likely that the variances that are reported are down to hones and shaving products used.
It is indeed. You can ask the companies and craftsmen which are still there (a scant few), and why would they lie? They have nothing to gain from badmouthing their own industry, have they? So when several people who were actually there when it happened tell me very much the exact same story, I tend to believe them more than vendors and collectors. Because both of the latter actually do have something to lose.
Oh, you mean like Heljestrand and Hellberg? Well, yes, that may be a little sad for the investor. Believe you me, I was a bit miffed when they these old craftsmen shared their opinions about Puma razors. I have a few. I really like them. I do not want to believe they were considered [censored], but upon closer inspection, I do not find them quite as great as I once did.
I my previous career here, I used to pester Lynn and others with the one question which probably every novice (and I consider myself a novice after roughly a decade dealing with this hobby still) would love to see answered, "what is the best razor", and the answer was, "well this brand and that one, and this one too, oh, and don't forget that one over there." There is no holy grail, and I personally believe that there certainly is no one single brand that outperforms everything else. If there were, people would have noticed. Moreover, it would have reached world domination fairly quickly back then, but not one brand ever did. We are, and we often forget that, talking about the vintage equivalent of hair-dryers or washing machines. Except for souvenir razors and seven day sets, we are looking at household items which were bought because they either worked, or they did not. Go back a few years in SPR's archive before that famous shot Max posted, and read about what people thought about Filarmonica razors back then. "Solid performer, decent price" was the general verdict. The raving reviews started afterwards, and prices skyrocketed. I know a guy who about 18 months back came across a few boxes full of NOS Filarmonicas. He is selling them piecemeal to keep prices up, and that is a very nice way to get a lot of money. Which is great for him, but also tells you a bit about the market, and why prices have been a bit off for the last five years.
Then again, what is wrong with having a high quality razor even if you overpaid? I have exactly one Filarmonica left which I refuse to sell because I overpaid (by my standards, ie something like $125), and I refuse to rip off some innocent buyer by selling it at the current going rate. However, I would still recommend getting one, if you can get it for less than $150, simply because they are rock solid razors, and because finding a Solingen #14 for a sensible price can be a bit hard. One per year on average so far, as I said. But it can be done.
And the same story continues, this was told years ago and has just continued on..
Has somebody finally found a scrap of paper to prove the "One Blank made in Solingen story"
A box
an Ad
Maybe a Mis-stamped razor ???
We have all seen Dovo Ducks and Puma Ducks
we have seen JPM Fillarmonicas too
I would just love to see some actual tangible proof Anyone ??? A piece of tangible proof ???
Been asking that same question for about 7 years now I would have hoped that somebody somewhere would have a piece of the puzzle by now, just show me and I will be a believer
Edit: Just occurred to me isn't there a Patent on this or something like it, we have seen Patents/Etc: of other razors and even special grinds, has anyone looked down that route ?
I believe some of the early Filarmonica's were made in Germany they even have a very stylized Germanic Eagle stamped on the box, and these early Filarmonica's did not carry the country of origin on the opposite side of the tang like the later Filarmonica's which had Spain stamped on the tang, I have a early Filarmonica 14 Especial and I've always thought these blades were ground in Germany even the scales are bakelite, and those Filarmonica's are over 60 or 70 years old.
http://i713.photobucket.com/albums/w...d.jpg~original
I think you got to the heart of the problem right there. When you have a lot invested in something - emotionally, financially or both - it is hard to consider that what you believe to be true may very well not be. This sometimes results in a refusal to change ones perspective.
Take, for instance, Dubl Ducks. Irrespective of their quality, they are said to be quite "rare and hard to procure, in good condition". Though when looking ONLY at ebay auctions, it becomes painfully clear that they are not anything even remotely close to rare, but more often than not suffer from severe forms of deterioration, often caused by celluloid rot, meaning: they came in inferior scales. But even the ones in good (or restored state) are quite numerous. Yet, inexplicably, they sell at prices that, to me, do not make sense. I cannot explain this particular case in any other way than hype and wishful thinking or self-fulfilling profecies.
Back to the #14 discussion: even though, so far, there is no piece of paper that says "This and this many #13 blanks, this and this many #14 blanks for Filarmónica, to be produced and delivered by Hugo Herkenrath Edelstahlschmiede by this and this date", a verbal confirmation by this same company is really as close as it gets, and
makes a lot of sense to me.
Why not contact the forge at Herkenrath and ask them if they have any such material in their archives?
Even more: I have, more than once, had strikingly different shaving results and experiences while using exactly the same set-up. There are so many variables; differences in steel and grind (read: similar grinds between different razors) are likely rather minor players, as long as you have a keen edge that effortless removes stubble. Especially for beginners, this is not something to be focussing on.
Dubl Ducks are probably the single most produced export razor ever made. Calling them rare is calling a VW Beetle rare. Even the allegedly very rare Grim Reaper pops up on eBay at least twice a year. Now, when did you last see a Sahara Rider or a Camel Rider? Right. Those are actually rare, and always have been (little wonder given their history). But Filarmonicas are a dime a dozen, too. Right now, there are dozens on eBay (if you include local sites). They are easier to find than most if not all Revisor rarities.
Because they do not have any. Knowing only too well from past experience what the first reaction towards first hand information from people who were actually there and made the razors others rave about would be, I asked. It would have been nice, though, albeit in a rather obsessive-compulsive way. Because, well, how shall I phrase it...? Let us just say that there is basically no evidence for anything in straight razor shaving. So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have. And just when you think you can at least trust product labels, somebody proves you cannot.
And that is not even mentioning the possibility to scientifically analyse vintage steels and use proper tools to measure grinds and widths of razors. It would not be hard to do, though, but strangely enough, "hard evidence" is only ever asked for when a popular myth is busted.
That said, if the same logic were applied in reverse, I could claim that all Dubl Ducks were made by alien slave labourers on 67P and tell everybody who said that an American import and distribution company existed that while this might well be true, it does not prove anything. Because there are no papers proving that they were not made in Ghana. Evidence of absence, anyone?
Because they do not have any. Knowing only too well from past experience what the first reaction towards first hand information from people who were actually there and made the razors others rave about would be, I asked. It would have been nice, though, albeit in a rather obsessive-compulsive way. Because, well, how shall I phrase it...? Let us just say that there is basically no evidence for anything in straight razor shaving. So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have. And just when you think you can at least trust product labels, somebody proves you cannot.
And that is not even mentioning the possibility to scientifically analyse vintage steels and use proper tools to measure grinds and widths of razors. It would not be hard to do, though, but strangely enough, "hard evidence" is only ever asked for when a popular myth is busted.
That said, if the same logic were applied in reverse, I could claim that all Dubl Ducks were made by alien slave labourers on 67P and tell everybody who said that an American import and distribution company existed that while this might well be true, it does not prove anything. Because there are no papers proving that they were not made in Ghana. Evidence of absence, anyone?[/QUOTE]
RobinK,
I have read with great interest your posts in this thread. I appreciate that work you have done and the contacts you have made with former Herkenrath craftsmen. Your work may eventually solve the mystery behind the #14s.
I respectfully disagree with your general positions regarding evidence, however. That's quite a blanket statement that there is no evidence even about how certain hones effect razors. If you do a quick forum/internet search, you will notice that people have used electron microscopes to analyze the structure of natural hones and many of these same people have analyzed how edges look on an electron microscope after being subjected to certain hones. While this research might not meet scientific journal standards, it would be hard to argue that just tests do not provide some iota of proof of how respective hones impact razors.
Further, I disagree that there is no proof of anything -- related to archives and sales records, orders -- in the straight razor world. If you search the forum, some members have managed to make contact with original manufacturers who have pulled requested information from archives. People have been able to find archival information to provide dates of production, for instance. With regards to Herkenrath, Filarmonica, and the #14s, there certainly must have existed sales orders, manufacturing records, designs, mock-ups, correspondence, etc., that would have proven were the #14s were forged and ground. The big question for us razor enthusiasts, then, is whether any of these documents have been preserved or retained? However, you may be right that no such records have been preserved.
Finally, I think it is completely fair for you, as the proponent of wide-sweeping claim about #14 razors and multiple brands, to bear the burden of proof. The fact that we cannot prove your claim as false does not make it true. While the statements/assertions that you attribute to Herkenrath craftsmen and knowledgeable Solingen straight razor shavers does support your claims, this evidence is all second-hand and hearsay. In that regard, I believe the evidence you've presented supports your claim as an intriguing possibility, but you need more to prove your claim as conclusive.
It was solved years ago. Whether you believe wild guesswork or first (not, as you accidentally said, second) hand information from people who were there and actually made the products in question remains your prerogative.
I never made such a statement. I said, "So far, no one has even managed to prove (scientifically, not through fumbling around) which effect certain hones have," and I dare you to prove me wrong (tangible proof preferred).
Ah, maybe a short introduction seems in order: I have been here before, albeit under a different name. I am back by popular demand (ie blame it on Lynn). These so called analyses prove absolutely nothing, and the shots of edges even less. However, the last person to tell their authors that in a fashion as blunt as mine mysteriously disappeared from this forum.
I find that a bit odd. Your disagreeing, I mean. Because I never said there was not proof of archives, sales records, and so on. Unless the technical specs have changed dramatically, I could make the hard drive here overlow with scans of them. Both from Solingen and from Eskilstuna.
Just out of curiosity, have you ever been to Solingen? Do you have an idea how big the average house in Solingen is, and how much room bills and so forth from the 1920s onward would take up? And that is not even mentioning the redevelopment of large parts of Solingen by the RAF and USAF a few decades ago.
While you may think that this is completely fair (and it may be, if you think so), it is also completely illogical. There are dozens of #14 blades around. Incidentally, they all look basically the same. More than that, they look eerily similar to any Filarmonica #14 ever found. Add to that the fact that the same goes true for the Nos 13-10, and the plot begins to thicken. Now, let us a for moment ignore the silly idea that anyone will find "tangible proof" after 50 years or more. Let us focus instead on a single, simple question. When we find the exact same types of blades in Germany and Spain, and if we find three makers in Spain, but dozens in Germany, would anyone in their right mind consider it likely that they were imported from Spain and distributed in Germany? Spain, a country not known to have produced a single cut-throat razor blank in its entire history? A country which at the time in question was under fascist rule, about as poor as Costa Rica or Blackwater AZ are today, and equally technologically advanced?
And, quite honestly, I could not be bothered with any "tangible proof" anyhow. My job here is not to proselytise. If anything, my job is to go where no one has gone before (ie Solingen), get the facts, and convey them to those who have kept an open mind. As I said, all you need to do is go there and talk to the people who were actually around. It really is as simple as that.
Hi robin, i have to say that you are a master debater :), yes i do mean that you are good at arguing your point, and in fact all the anecdotal evidence that you have gathered would certainly support your claim, and i have no reason to say that you are incorrect.
However saying that all of your anecdotal research is more valid than photographic evidence (in the case of how hones affect edges) is a bit of a claim.
As to your ascertation that various members have "mysteriously disapeared from this forum", can you provide some evidence?
But I never said that. I said, there is no what you call "tangible proof" as to how certain hones affect razor edges. Shots of edges in and by themselves, however, prove exactly nothing. And if you subscribe to Glenn's theories, you should be even more sceptical of them. Because allegedly, there is no tangible proof for an ideal blade angle (hint: 17°, give an take 1°).
Besides, mine is not anecdotal but corroborating evidence. Which is something else entirely. Either way, Popper to the rescue.
Of course I can. But I will not. Well, actually, I cannot, because I never said that "various members" had disappeared. Just one. Well, let sleeping dogs die, and all that. If you must, ask Google about "Operation True Blue". It was the closest anyone ever came to the scientific analysis of particular hones, but we are getting widely off topic here.
To get back on topic, does anyone have a logical explanation (tangible proof would, of course, be better somehow) how the allegedly Spanish blades made it to Germany and dozens of different makers who were active at different times in history yet somehow all ended up with virtually identical blades.
Well I am glad your are back Robin, you are like the Julien Assange of straight razors.
Thank you for posting that. I thought I was going nuts when I could not detect much difference between brands of razors from various countries in how well they actually shaved. They may feel different in use because of the grind but given a good edge they all seem to manage to shave well. I do have my preferences but it is not solely brand based. Anyway, thank you again for that bit of sanity.
Bob
But Glen, you should know better than to accuse me of errors. Here is some readable proof. But that is a different matter entirely. To get back on topic, would you happen to have a logical explanation how the allegedly Spanish blades made it to Germany and dozens of different makers who were active at different times in history yet somehow all ended up with virtually identical blades? I think that would help clear things up a little. Thanks!
Kind regards,
Robin
Robin, if you have the wherewithal to ask some of these old time craftsman, who 'know where the bodies are buried', who made dubl duck, FWE, Bartmann, C-Mon, and like that, back 'in the day,' that would be really cool. Rumor is that Dovo made the dubl ducks at the very end of the Pearlson era, but I'd like to have that confirmed, and to know if it was Puma, what I've always suspected, who made them in the heyday ?
Well, I have more than my fair share of #14's.
Funny thing is, they vary much more than what you are trying to indicate in your recent posts here.
(mine are all bought NOS by the way, just to get that out of the way)
I have posted pics on here pointing that out.
The difference is striking really, especially when it comes to width of the spine.
Almost double the width on certain brands compared to others.
Quite uniform on the various makes though..
So your precious German friends down there in Solingen were either exceptionally sloppy in their grinding, or they didn't in fact make all #14's as you keep claiming.
Others possibly made their varieties as well, as proposed by some.
That must be hard for a proud German to accept, but that's an issue you'd have to deal with yourself.
Sure, they may have made a bulk of the #14's down at Henckenrath, but all? Nope, my collection of 14§s does not support that claim at all.
And for the record, while I am a "collector" of amongst other razors, the Filarmonica brand ones, I really don't care at all about this any more.
This horse has bean beaten to death numerous times already.
Some of the debates on this topic from years back were quite entertaining, but brought, much like this one, nothing new to this community.
Just like today, is it not? You get Dovos, Wackers, and various other razors. And people stare at them in wonder and discuss their different qualities. But at the end of the day, each and every one of these razors was ground from one of four types of Herkenrath blanks.
Maybe you should calm down a little first, my friend. Firstly, I never said they ground all the #14 blades. Second, are not your jingoistic slurs a little unbecoming for a moderator? Or have standards slipped dramatically in my absence?
Adding condescension to jingoism. Why? Are you finding it difficult to answer a simple question without resorting to ad hominem attacks?
Are you seriously claiming that you can detect the origin of a blank by looking at the finished blade? Chapeau! That is a very rare talent, indeed. In fact, I know of no other person capable of this particular trick.
Have fun!
Robin
P.S. Hi, Jimmy! I'll ask around. The Dubl Duck story is a long one, and it does involve Puma and Dovo, but that is not saying much, because both "subcontracted" heavily.
Ok guys, as fun as this is. Keep the discussion on topic and stop arguing about the argument itself. :)
What is funny Robin is that really nobody doubts what you heard and that you believe it wholeheartedly.. With you however it has been a pet agenda of yours for over 5 years so what I myself doubt is your objectivity..
You see one thing and dismiss anything that doesn't agree with your "Faith" so basically any actual discussion is simply an argument on semantics, deflection, and how to argue..
Now personally if I had a pet agenda and got the rare opportunity to sit across the table with a true craftsman I probably would have bought a few more drinks and tried to get an Interview on camera. or perhaps ask if there was a shred of proof available to have in my hand, or a pic of.. Basically all you are giving here is what is called "Hearsay evidence" and your personal opinion of designs..
Something, Anything..
Also you have shifted several times during the last 12 hours so what exactly were you told
Are you saying that Jose' ie: Filarmonica et al were simply importers
or are you saying that rough blanks were sent out and ground and finished elsewhere
and are we talking all the razors or just the #14 you have eluded to all this so far, and I obviously don't want to put words in your mouth and hear the infamous "I never said that"
Please clarify as succinctly as possible..
Noun: Hearsay
information received from other people that one cannot adequately substantiate; rumor.
"according to hearsay, Bob had managed to break his arm"
synonyms: rumor, gossip, tittle-tattle, idle talk; More
stories, tales;
informal the grapevine, scuttlebutt, loose lips
Law
the report of another person's words by a witness, usually disallowed as evidence in a court of law.
"everything they had told him would have been ruled out as hearsay"
Attachment 184459
Robin, of course there are the Bresduck Puma-ducks. As you probably realize, I'm not referring to those, rather to the standard Bresduck, Pearlduck stuff. Goldedge, Special, Wonderedge, and what have you.
Am I mistaken, or didn't Puma have a large factory in Solingen since 1769 ? I couldn't imagine them subcontracting with that resource at their disposal. I wonder which brands came out of their own factories in the years before, and after WWII ? Which were made at one of the large factories and re-branded with the well known logos we know from the golden years ? BTW, maybe with those old grinders it is like a "Ford versus Chevy" argument, but AFAIC Puma razors, from 'back in the day' will stand with any ever made .......... and so will Heljestrands.
Robin, I am very fond of early to mid-century Pumas. I have a hard time conceiving that they were considered %?&*, because I find their quality beyond reproach. If I compare it to other leading German makers of the time, Dorko, Globusmen, Bartmann etc.. they are not better nor worse. So how can it be a product of subpar apprentice grinding? If it really is, I must be unable to tell the difference between a %?&* razor and quality razor.
I am curious to know what the old timers you spoke to consider to be the work of skilled craftsmen of that period? Thanks
When there is a lack of sufficient detailed physical evidence, company records, of a consumer product from so long ago of what went to whom it is anybody's guess. Even talking to the few people left alive that were involved in the production of the consumer goods from so long ago about what went on does not necessarily yield accurate information. Memory of events so long ago can be clouded by time, the tellers perspective and personal prejudices can slant and colour what is recalled. All you are left with is uncertainty that will likely never be truly resolved. No real point in debating it on that basis alone. Best you can do is enjoy the elderly consumer goods for what they are and can do.
Bob
This is all quite interesting.
I have a stamped Puma #14 blade around here somewhere. Now I'll have to go find it.
Yo
First off, I am calm, no worries mate.
Second, we have discussed this ad nauseam on numerous occasions before.
Here or on the various other foras out there, past or present.
As usual there is no consensus to be had, nor will there ever be, sadly.
There really isn't anything new here, from either side, so I'll bow out of this;)
Keep at it gents;)
Hi Robin, welcome back mate! :)
My #14 shaves very nicely, wherever it came from.
As always, it's excellent to see robust debate with each side putting forward their evidence/views/suspicions/whatever. Even if it never gets "resolved" (by which I mean everyone agrees, which as we all know it won't - this is SRP after all :p) I've always thought these kinds of discussions are very beneficial and illuminating in more ways than one.
James.
RobinK, this is your collection?
Nice :dropjaw::dropjaw::dropjaw:
An interesting debate this.
What Robin has wrote is plausible, but as I have said over on TSR, could just be a man sick of shaving forums inflating the prices of of these brands and so set out to undermine them (just thinking out aloud Robin!) Because let's face it, without us the value of Filarmonicas, Ducks, Puma's etc wouldn't be anything...no?
What nags at me though is the fact that Spain had a booming iron & steel industry during the existance of Filarmonica and they are renouned for producing good steel just as the other countries that produced razors have, Britain, Germany, USA & Sweeden.
So would it not have made very good economical sense for companies in Spainto manufacture their own razors? I mean the men there did shave ;)
There is also Filarmonicas awards for exporting to over 60 countries, would they really of won awards for exporting a product they didn't manufacture? (entirely)
Also the Franco reign came long after the existance of the Filarmonica brand, so I'm not quite sure where he comes into this?
It's all a little 'wishy washy to me!
Interesting, indeed. This is the second attempt at character assassination in this thread. Is that the best you guys can come up with? For the record, I have no interest whatsoever in the prices of vintage razors, especially not mass produced ones. I have nothing to gain from their prices falling (or rising). I have offered information which goes beyond mere guesswork or hearsay. If you choose to discard that information, that is perfectly fine by me (albeit illogical).
I think you may want to revisit the Solingen industry. It blew Sheffield's out of the water in less than 20 years. And setting up an entire production chain for razors when at the same time the highest quality available was being produced a few hundred kilometres away... I might have been tempting, but it would hardly have worked. Profit margins for razors were slim back then (as they are now, except for so called custom razors).
Neither am I. You may want to reconsider your question, taking into account the economics of fascism and the fact that Filarmonica operated under fascist rule for 35 years.
It is, is it not? May I suggest that we stick to facts or original research instead of making attempts at character assassination and trying to derail the discussion by making up claims and putting words into people's mouths? I think that would help keep this discussion civil, and focused on the case in point.
Thank you.
Have fun,
Robin
Don't be so paranoid Robin, no assassinations going on here.
You have presented a different form of information to what has been presented already. No more, no less, just information, no facts.
But wasn't Sheffield & Solingen producing blades during 1800's (and before that) & 1900's spanning at least 100 years? Infact sword production go's back to the middle ages...no? I think your 20 year blow out is a bit exagerated.
So? I don't understand what you are implying here, they were doing ok before, during and after Franco, things went down hill when JMP died.
Again, just wind your neck out out a bit and leave you paranoia out of it. Let's stick to facts, you have produced none, just a story.
My "wish washy" comment was based on the lack of real hard facts of the origins of the Filarmonica blades, that's all.
Thread derailment...that happened long before I got here, infact I would like to see these comments removed from this thread and placed into a more suitable thread.
My facts:
Shaving forums have inflated the prices of these razors.
Spain had a booming steel industry just like Britain, USA, Germany & Sweden. All manufactured razors.
Filarmonica were about before, during and after Franco, he nor he dictatorship has any baring on this dicussion that I can make out.
Now, let's hear/see your facts regarding your claims.
Which different form of information would that be, then?
Maybe you should try digesting information piecemeal to avoid overload. Yes, the Solingen/Sheffield competition was earlier in time. But it left Solingen as the sole contender worth mentioning, and its production processes lean and efficient, including, but not limited to, souring of raw materials, and steel production.
Furthermore, your claim "Spain had a booming iron & steel industry during the existance of Filarmonica and they are renouned for producing good steel" is completely unfounded. In fact, "Spain’s role in world iron and steel production from the last quarter of the nineteenth century through the early twentieth century was primarily that of an iron ore supplier.[Source: Technological Change and Location in Spanish Modern Iron and Steel, 1882-1936, http://goo.gl/LqB9Ym] I suggest that you read up on this matter further before making any further untenable claims.
Is that a fact? If so, based on what data and information?
And here we go again. I would suggest that you stop making this personal.
I put the (provably) wrong part into italics. And yes, all four countries produced razors. One issue being contended here, however, is that Spain did not produce blanks, at least not in quantities worth mentioning.
A claim has been made that Spain outsourced razor production to cut costs. Again, please take a moment to familiarise yourself with the economics of fascism (while you are at it, you will see that Spain's economic situation was grim during the entire time in which Filarmonica were operational). Therefore, the claim is illogical, and counterfactual.
Camaraderie might score you points with people averse to research, but it will not strengthen the validity of the claims you make in the slightest.
And just for the record, and because misrepresenting what I seems to become a habit for you, I did not make any claims. I relayed information which I obtained from actual sources, and corroborated this information.
Unless there is hard evidence that can be produced to prove the point, it's all just so much talk. I've read a bunch of words, haven't seen one piece of documentation. So speaking of Razor's...how about Occam's Razor, you know the simplest explanation is usually the correct answer?
Proposition #1 - the Spanish made razors, they had a steel industry, one of the razor's was called a Filarmonica made by a guy named Jose.
Proposition #2 - they were all made by Germans either in Spain, or shipped to Spain. Why? Some old guys said so.
What is the most likely explanation? They were made in Spain by a guy named Jose. What's my proof? There are ten's of thousands of razors and packages that say so.
Does this make this the absolute correct explanation? I don't know.
Does it make it the most likely explanation?
Yes, as far as I'm concerned, and any other reasonable person, it does, barring documented evidence to say otherwise.
Until I see some documented evidence, I'm not going to go around like some conspiracy theorist telling people strange stories...if I recall a motto from one of the American States, I believe it's phrased this way. Forgive this Canadian if I get it wrong:
"I'm from Missouri, show me???"
44 pages? Really? Not even winter yet so cabin fever can't be the excuse. :)
Might find this thread interesting: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...-alliance.html
And this one also: http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...filly-not.html
I am still confused!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gf1WT8VEZxk
Greetings, Frank,
I recognize that forums can be a difficult place to know who is trustworthy. SRP do a great job here by trying to identify members who are knowledgeable and helpful. Based on your post total, 4k in a smidge over a year (impressive!), I assume you are familiar with these (and most of the things on this site). I once had the privilege of serving as a mentor here, but life got in the way and I rarely post anymore (young kids, career, growing a beard :p and those things shifted my interests for a bit). As Robin mentioned, he was a moderator here at one time, and I'm sure you have seen that these discussions/disagreements have been going on for years. It's fair to say no one has produced concrete evidence for either point of view. However, "some conspiracy theorist telling strange stories" is hardly what RobinK is. He's the guy who is responsible for over 90% of the SRP wiki (or at least from the time that I became less active), and he's also one of the driving forces behind the mentor program here (please correct me if I'm wrong, Lynn, Glen, Robin, whoever). Furthermore, he's one of very few of the members here who have visited the small Kotten where master craftsmen developed their world renowned reputations and spoke with those involved in the history... Could he be wrong? Sure. But, he's relaying information from people who should know.
So, now we have another thread posted here with another link connecting Filarmonica and German sources for their steel. Nothing firm, but his reasoning, and his sources are quite sound. I think SRP is best when people are not making these things personal. I have been guilty of it in the past, and it is not all that pleasant. If I know my friend, and I do, I am sure he's going to be finding out if there's any way to document the stories the craftsmen told him. If not, it's not a huge deal, but this is not some wild conspiracy. It is a retelling of verbal history...
Have a great day.
Good to see all of you guys. I will try to check in a little more regularly. As Lynn always says, Have Fun!