Thread: That 1700's Show

Originally Posted by inoe

Hi guys (and girls) !

I just recently acquired a rusty but kinda unused razor:
Attachment 234919

I have to say that oldie is pretty big: 15/16 wide (not that uncommon), but the edge is 3' 11/32 long (8.5 cm), which is by far the longest blade I own (it beats hands up my 1820's 3' 1/4 Greaves or Joseph Elliot).

Does anybody know a maker whose trademark (or name) was SPAIN ? I know form 1787 directories that Benjamin Withers' trademark was ESPAGNE (Spain in french), but I can't find SPAIN specifically.

From the shape and the typicall dip-at-toe, I date that baby from 1770-1780 (maybe older ?) but I would be grateful to have any more infos.

The Trademark R Heart Spain belongs to Ann Rowland from West Bar Green Sheffield, England. She came from a big family of cutlers, father brothers, sister,

Originally Posted by inoe

Hi guys (and girls) !

I just recently acquired a rusty but kinda unused razor:
Attachment 234919

I have to say that oldie is pretty big: 15/16 wide (not that uncommon), but the edge is 3' 11/32 long (8.5 cm), which is by far the longest blade I own (it beats hands up my 1820's 3' 1/4 Greaves or Joseph Elliot).

Does anybody know a maker whose trademark (or name) was SPAIN ? I know form 1787 directories that Benjamin Withers' trademark was ESPAGNE (Spain in french), but I can't find SPAIN specifically.

From the shape and the typicall dip-at-toe, I date that baby from 1770-1780 (maybe older ?) but I would be grateful to have any more infos.

Nice!

The dip-at-toe is indeed very clear! Since this razor is pretty alike this "France" razor:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...h-century.html (post #4 & #6),
I would set the date around 1780-1790, maybe towards 1770, not older though...

The "Spain" can be seen in the "Ann Rowland" razors, but they would have a "R <heart>" above "Spain"...
Here it seems that there is "IN" stamped above?

Do you have more pictures with details of the stamp?

Regards

Originally Posted by Fikira

Nice!

The dip-at-toe is indeed very clear! Since this razor is pretty alike this "France" razor:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...h-century.html (post #4 & #6),
I would set the date around 1780-1790, maybe towards 1770, not older though...

The "Spain" can be seen in the "Ann Rowland" razors, but they would have a "R <heart>" above "Spain"...
Here it seems that there is "IN" stamped above?

Do you have more pictures with details of the stamp?

Regards

Couldnt make it out either from the picture but the dating seems right, Ann Rowland 1774-1787.

Originally Posted by Martin103

The Trademark R Heart Spain belongs to Ann Rowland from West Bar Green Sheffield, England. She came from a big family of cutlers, father brothers, sister,

From the 1774 G&M, I thought Ann Rowland's trademark was "R Heart" and/or "AIN", therefore I discarded that possibility...



Do you mean Gales and Martin could be wrong on that point ? Is it a typo or were AIN and SPAIN both trademarked ?

By the way, do we know if this was Ann's specific trademark or Rowland family's one (like P* was Norris/Fox one, not specifically Samuel's one) ?

Originally Posted by Fikira

Nice!

The dip-at-toe is indeed very clear! Since this razor is pretty alike this "France" razor:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...h-century.html (post #4 & #6),
I would set the date around 1780-1790, maybe towards 1770, not older though...

The "Spain" can be seen in the "Ann Rowland" razors, but they would have a "R <heart>" above "Spain"...
Here it seems that there is "IN" stamped above?

Do you have more pictures with details of the stamp?

Regards

Here you go gentlemen !



Could definitely be a R and a Heart, although the letter blocks are kinda unprecise and look older than this one (which by the way says PAIN without R and Heart):

Originally Posted by Martin103

Couldnt make it out either from the picture but the dating seems right, Ann Rowland 1774-1787.

Martin, do these dates comes to you from the fact she appears in the 1774 directory and not in the 1787 one ? Or do you have more informations about Rowland's (Ann or family) activity ?

EDIT:
With Ann+Rowland keywords, I can find much more infos, although, as always, things are not that easy...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...knowledge.html

Originally Posted by inoe

From the 1774 G&M, I thought Ann Rowland's trademark was "R Heart" and/or "AIN", therefore I discarded that possibility...



Do you mean Gales and Martin could be wrong on that point ? Is it a typo or were AIN and SPAIN both trademarked ?

By the way, do we know if this was Ann's specific trademark or Rowland family's one (like P* was Norris/Fox one, not specifically Samuel's one) ?












Martin, do these dates comes to you from the fact she appears in the 1774 directory and not in the 1787 one ? Or do you have more informations about Rowland's (Ann or family) activity ?

EDIT:
With Ann+Rowland keywords, I can find much more infos, although, as always, things are not that easy...
http://straightrazorpalace.com/begin...knowledge.html

Indeed finding information on these very old razors is not quite simple at all. Personally i believe that gales & Martin reproduction on Ann Rowland trademark is incorrect. There is a few example of a razor with the R Heart and Spain and never seen a razor with R Heart and Ain? What are the chances of having a razor maker from the same era using a trademark with R Heart and not Spain but Ain, stamped in the same fashion.


Ann trademark was specific to her, since her sister used a totally different stamp, and it seems like others cutlers with the Rowland name were not fabricating razors.

I do not have any more information about the family, so since Ann was listed in 1774 and not on the later directory, that how the dates were figured out. it is highly probable that it could be earlier then 1774 but not later then 1787.

Martin (and others), would you consider the letter blocks an indication of the age ? The more primitive the older ? Or does it only reflect the quality of the stamps used ?

Originally Posted by inoe

Martin (and others), would you consider the letter blocks an indication of the age ? The more primitive the older ? Or does it only reflect the quality of the stamps used ?

It is certainly one indication of age, seems like the more primitive razors are usually a symbol more then often difficult to read because of wear. Poorly struck blades are common as well.

Thankx for the pictures!
Could indeed be R Heart SPAIN!

Indeed, Zak also mentioned that the mark stamp in Sketchley's Directory 1774 could be wrong
Also a bit more information that Zak gave (Thank you Zak!), if you don't have this already:

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...d-shavers.html (p. 58, post #580)

Thank you Fikira !

I read that post from Zak but totally forgot about it !

About edge length, may I ask those who own razors from that time if they meet mine ? I've got two razors little younger (probably around 1790-1800 - one Clark and Hall and one Birks - both Cast steel) that are shorter (3" 3/16 and 3" long). Zak, If you read me, I'd like to have your measurements.

How do they shave by the way ? Been told they were much softer than (let's say) 1820's Sheffield. Is it possible it is made of cast steel (without mentioning it) or is it quite early for that time ?

Originally Posted by inoe

Thank you Fikira !

I read that post from Zak but totally forgot about it !

About edge length, may I ask those who own razors from that time if they meet mine ? I've got two razors little younger (probably around 1790-1800 - one Clark and Hall and one Birks - both Cast steel) that are shorter (3" 3/16 and 3" long). Zak, If you read me, I'd like to have your measurements.

How do they shave by the way ? Been told they were much softer than (let's say) 1820's Sheffield. Is it possible it is made of cast steel (without mentioning it) or is it quite early for that time ?

You're welcome!
I will check mines for measurements in the next few days

The "France" shaves really excellent, yes, softer steel but lovely!