Thread: Steel Composition

One of the fellows that used to hang around here did collect broken blades and had quite a number spectrographed. I got to see the results. The samples cut across all of Europe (Swedish, UK, French, Italian), and if recall serves me, the blades were all generally "old" pre war relics, but not nineteenth century. There was an insignificant difference in the steel composition. Carbon averaged 1.25% with very little in the way of other alloying elements. This suggests a crucible melt of consistent quality, aka Sheffield manufacture, with wide distribution to any number of razor factories making the blades from the raw material. It was an interesting shirt-cuff study. All that got lost when he left. Sorry to offer not much more than here-say.

Originally Posted by Mike Blue

One of the fellows that used to hang around here did collect broken blades and had quite a number spectrographed. I got to see the results. The samples cut across all of Europe (Swedish, UK, French, Italian), and if recall serves me, the blades were all generally "old" pre war relics, but not nineteenth century. There was an insignificant difference in the steel composition. Carbon averaged 1.25% with very little in the way of other alloying elements. This suggests a crucible melt of consistent quality, aka Sheffield manufacture, with wide distribution to any number of razor factories making the blades from the raw material. It was an interesting shirt-cuff study. All that got lost when he left. Sorry to offer not much more than here-say.

No chance off getting it, no one knows him?

That's very interesting Mike.

I can well believe that there was very little difference in the steel composition around that time, as most of the big companies had, by then, been long established and one can see how repeatability would be a huge plus.

Germany imported a huge amount of Sheffield steel, as did most other countries, and Swedish ore would be a key ingredient in Sheffield steel. It also was key in many Japanese and German made steels - some practical german firms even bought their own mines in Sweden.

Sheffield silver steel was used by very many german razor makers, and Kayser, Ellison & Co were a major Sheffield exporter. Puma and Bartmann among others used their product. Apart from silver steel they also made, blister, best double shear and crucible cast steels.

Personally, I am more interested in earlier steels. Sheffield at that time abounded with steel makers, both large and small, who produced a bewildering variety of alloy steels. If you wanted it, they could make it. In Geoffrey Tweedale's words it was the home of bijou steels. If blades spanning earl/mid 1700s to the late 1800s were analysed then I am sure the differences would be marked, but gradually standardising as time went on.

Regards,
Neil

I remember when Josh Earl was going to get a project like that, analyzing steel composition, going. He posted a request for donations of junk blades and I sent an old cracked Cattaragaus cutlery blade to him. Dunno if that project ever got off the ground, unless that is who Mike is referring to ? I never heard of any results.

Knowing some folks in the physics department at one of the local universities, I've been really tempted to try and seduce a professor into repeating James Hadfield's analysis of Sheffield silver steel using much better sample sizes and controls. Plus, apparently they've got a very fancy new machine that can analyze much less destructively.

The Stodart razor Faraday gave to his father-in-law is visible in an online museum -- and you can see the holes Hadfield drilled in it (the picture in his book doesn't have them).

Yes, it was Josh. As I said, I got to see and discuss the results but that's about as far as everything got and Josh was dragged away by life AFAIK.

You know I had a spearmint I wanted to do also, kind of a reverse of what Josh was going to do....He sends me one of his razors and I shave with it and guess what the composition of the steel is....that one didn't get off the ground either.

This I posted on another forum a while back:

Just some small things to think about before making blanket statements about so and so's steel and its quality and abilities!
Iron becomes steel and hardened steel through changing the size of the grain and the quantity and type of carbon contained. There are and have been many processes which did this to a greater or lesser degree of success.

Yesterday I was able to enjoy a pleasant conversation with a long established (46+ years) expert welder and restorer of edged weapons, armour, and fire arms for museums. I guarantee that he knows more than a bit of modern and ancient metallurgy! His opinion, from his experience, is that there are so many variables in older steel manufacturing that any pre 1900 blade is apt to be a toss up and even some since then!
There were manufacturers and smiths that used processes similar to those now in use and others that probably did not!

Some ‘for instances':

The Crucible steel production method of Sheffield and others and earlier, of The Ottoman Empire (Wootz) and in some cases the Nordic and Germanic peoples was a great way to make quality steel in small quantities. It also took a week of careful heat control and a good bit of legerdemain with carbon in the form of charcoal, iron ore selection and preparation plus addition of wrought iron and the stirring in of elements at the proper time to do it well. (some other methods were wrought, folded steels)

Much of the difference of early steel qualities was due to the iron ore and where it was mined/found/ reduced from sand. The included chemicals and elements would, of course, vary from site to site. Much of the quality steel of northern Europe was from the Nordic areas. The Arabic, Northern African and Mediterranean areas had their own ore sources and the Japanese used hematite; a sand.

He also pointed out that some of the Wedge blades we think are ground off center to the spine were probably caused by the owners sharpening through the case hardening at the bevel and so from then on they only honed one side to keep the hard surface all the way to the edge. He has seen this effect on old knives such as butcher knives. It may show up as a line of differently oxidized steel above the bevel on some blades.

According to him, there were many knife, sword, and cutlery manufacturers who used pack case hardening* well into the late 1800s; a process that turned the surface of a poor steel into a steel capable of taking and holding and edge.. If done properly, the hardness went into the metal about 1.5mm or 1/16th of an inch. It also left a relatively soft and flexible core in the blade to absorb shock. A simple way to explain the effect; there is a tale of a armor-smith's apprentice who accidentally dropped a helm of iron wrapped in leather into a forge. It became a surface harder than they had ever done before. Yup, you and I know the apprentice got beaten and may have been thrown out rather than rewarded. Howsomever, the tale is a common one in historical fiction.

So, a bit of knowledge will help understand some of the historical possibilities inherent in a great material that made modern civilization, cleanliness, and large scale war possible. It is a green material in the modern parlance and may be reheated, re-alloyed and reused, to any required effect.

*Pack case hardening is used to take a low carbon content steel to a higher surface content of carbon capable of hardening and tempering. It is done by placing the by low to medium carbon steel/wrought iron** into a thick walled airtight iron box with certain types of charcoal, animal hides, tanned and otherwise, and horn and bone scraps by use of eyeball quantities and TLABR ( That Looks About Right), and assorted chemical additives. Some of them like arsenic really helped the final quality and some were somewhat imaginative; silver for instance, a good example of early hype!! The box and contents were placed into a forge type forced draft oven/kiln and kept at high heat for up to a week. This allowed the carbon to ‘soak’ into the steel without being burned out of it by oxygen. The amount of time and temperature control greatly affected the final result. The methods were mostly eyeball, mark 1. The resulting steel and all contents were then dumped into hot water, brine, or oil. That hardened the steel. It was then tempered. Or by some methods it was used to harden only the very surface of tools and or gun parts to withstand abrasion.
You can see beautiful blue/gold/red/brown color case hardening on many quality firearms and quality tools for the shop and mechanician from early days to the present day.. for more info,see Wikipedia:Link Here

**Wrought iron is iron which has been processed by heat and forging into an iron with a much smaller grain size and carbon content It also has inclusions of slag. It was an iron we may call wrought but was also known as malleable ( for cold and hot working and weldable. Much less brittle than grey iron.) For more info, see Wikipedia: This link

It was only a short conversation, it could have gone on into a month and year. I look forward to more of such conversations when we get together at a similar venue in six months. I was able to verify some of the things which I had wondered 'bout. He asked me about some things with which i was familiar, at least in theory, and I was able to point him to some resources I had used in the past.

Nothing we do has a short answer which will suit all cases of a subject and I have been burned many times by believing "Gospel according to some practitioner.
I look forward to comments upon this short bit of shared information.
~Richard

That is exactly what interests me about early forms of iron and steel, Richard: that combination of sound principle and the arcane which often produced remarkable, sometimes legendary, results.

What could be more mysterious and produce such a mixed result as the old bloomery forge, for example, several examples of which still exist.

Strip the arcane from it then we still have sound practice where we can trace the path of material evolution, for instance:

(Blast furnace) pig iron/cast iron, (puddling furnace) -wrought iron , (cementation furnace) - blister steel - shear steel - (crucible pots) crucible steel, etc, etc.

Nearly all of the old cementation processes were long-winded, and when one product (eg wrought iron) was converted into another (eg blister steel) that was converted into another (eg crucible steel) then we are talking of times greatly in excess of a couple of weeks.

One of the main ingredients would never be found in any example of these steels - the art, strength and commitment of the men who made them. Imagine the hammering, folding and welding of those who converted blister steel into shear steel. Or the fortitude of those who stood before the open slits in a puddling furnace, raking/puddling its molten contents while their clothing nearly caught fire. Or the strength of the single man who held the crucible put in a great set of tongs which themselves weighed a colossal amount and lifted and poured its contents steadily while he and his companions were engulfed in the smoke, sparks and steam arising from tne wet cloth binding their legs and bodies.

Those men are long gone, and all but forgotten, the very men to which we owe the convenience of our way of life. The processes they used survived until comparatively recently though, in terms of commercial pours. For instance the last commercially made puddling was in the 1970s.

With regard to case hardening, it was long regarded in Sheffield as a means of making shoddy and second rate edged implements that did not last long, and I believe that statutes were taken out against its use a very long time ago, breaching of which resulted in fines, possible imprisonment and summary dismissal from the Cutlers Guild.

That there were different ways to reaching an end is indisputable, but that only makes study of the subject more rewarding and helps to maintain that arcane nature that casts a delightful tone over those early pioneers, redolent of the alchemysts of an even earlier age.

Regards,
Neil

I find this thread interesting, having lots of old razors. I know nothing of steel, with exception of working with it. There is such a wide variety of old steel out there in razors, knives and all manner of implements and instruments. It can be replicated, if not by accident, but surely on purpose! The steel is different in all razors, but particularly in old ones which are prone to being too hard, or too soft. Lots were hit and miss back when! Some are the epitome of straight razor steel. Just Right! They have voice, a tone. Can you hear it? I can. I just love good straight-shaving steel, regardless of where and how it comes. Newer, production stuff will never have it. Of that, I feel certain. Those with that quality are worth holding onto, IMO.
Spazola Knows! His steel is such