Thread: Solingen Looking to Preserve SER Manufacturing

Sounds like a great idea. I'm in need of a new career too so if they want an apprentice razor forger/honer I'm their man - I'll even up roots and move to Germany!

Originally Posted by Steelforge

Sounds like a great idea. I'm in need of a new career too so if they want an apprentice razor forger/honer I'm their man - I'll even up roots and move to Germany!

You have it bad Mr!!!!

However I'd crack the wallet open for one too....even though I still have to sort out shaving, honing and stropping the urge to buy is irresistable...

Is this what addiction feels like???

Awesome, I'd love to see this happen. Some points for consideration are;

1. Are the existing quality manufacturers producing all they can? e.g. Are Dovo and TI struggling to keep up with demand? It is possible that such an effort could have a negative effect, possible knocking TI and/or Dovo out of the straight business by depressing their possibly marginal existing straight business. A depressing thought, yes, but one to consider. We don't want to hurt what we have is my point.
2. Is the business plan solid with straights alone? Especially important for a consortium effort. Investors will run away faster than you can imagine if the case is based on us. That is, eager enthusiasts who would do just about anything to help this along. What they need is a general interest which can produce sales volume. Barring a grass roots groundswell, this can only be achieved with marketing. It's not all fluff and feel good kum-ba-ya. Without marketing, the best ideas and products shelve themselves. An associated accessories line with high margin may help with this. e.g. strops, mugs/scuttles, brushes, shave cream.
3. Can they do this in Solingen? Let's face it, the US and Western Europe have prohibitively high labor rates. Further, I can't see automating much of this production. I expect much of it would have to be hand made, assembled or tuned. Pakistan, China or India aren't necessarily bad production locations, as long as the production uses quality materials and methods, which the Germans could provide. A better alternative might be Eastern Europe and/or former Soviet bloc countries. Poland immediately comes to mind. The labor tends to be less expensive while the education and craftsmanship are top notch. All the Russian and Polish engineers I've come into contact with have good solid backgrounds.
4. How could they differentiate themselves? Newer, more ergonomic designs, blades with removable safety guides for beginners and new materials come to mind. A titanium-high carbon-titanium laminate would be nice and extremely light. Also, titanium as an electroplated surface coat might be interesting. It is softer than steel, and structurally wouldn't hold an edge as well as steel, but its softness may actually be beneficial to keep a blade sharper longer. It would most certainly respond to stropping better than steel if it could be deposited on the edge area.
5. How would they distribute these razors? Traditional channels such as CVS and Walgreens in the US wouldn't take them as they would be a 'too high' value item. Check this out next time you are in one of those stores. There is nothing available for purchase for greater than ~$50. This is by design, not by chance. Cheaper items 'turn' more and are less susceptible to pilferage. That leaves large anchor department stores, internet/catalog and boutique cutlery stores as obvious choices. Here's another thought. What about 'party' type sales, where reps would hold parties like women do for Tupperware, kids books, Christmas ornaments, adult toys, etc... You would give a party where you invite a bunch of guys to the host house, and demonstrate what is available, including all the items described above, plus the soft-goods such as soaps, AS, etc... This concept works amazingly well for some items. I have a good friend who is a multi-millionaire based on her adult toy parties. Add some beer, pick food and a shaving demo and you've got something.
6. Last, a full, sustainable production line might be a bit optimistic. What if they only recommissioned the machines whose output can not be replicated elsewhere. So, instead of the whole production line, just implement that which can't be replicated by some type of CNC machining, grinding, polishing operation. This was not an option when these plants produced in the past, and CNC machining can be as good or better than hand machining. It has the potential to cut costs substantially, while utilizing existing assets. Also, thermoset injection molding can produce some fine looking items and scales made with modern plastics technology have the potential of being an excellent option. As a side note, this can easily be farmed out to a job shop molder, letting the Germans focus on the important part, the blades. Hell, many of them would be re-handled by this crowd anyhow. Custom wood scales could be farmed out to Africa and other areas with excellent and inexpensive artisans. The Danes, while not cheap, are some of the best woodworkers I've seen to date and could offer 'high end' scales.

OK, that's my $0.02 on some things to consider. All that said, I'll bite if they produce. I could use a few extra razors... - John

I think one thing that helps being a consortium, is that they could share their resources/skills/advantages to benfit all of them. Collaboration of a new product relying on one company's expertise in grinding, another's heat treating, another's marketing, another's mass production of blanks, etc.

I'd expect initially that the razors would be offered in the same places as they already are. Additionally, more knife shops could come into retail since they could potentially be a Boker product. Production right now cannot keep up with demand from the existing Solingen sources. There is a 6 week production lead time for orders at both Dovo and another Solingen razor manufacturer Giesen & Forsthoff.

I think there are a couple of emerging technologies that can be adapted to straight razors. Metal Injection Molding (MIM) could produce razor blanks with the grind already made in the blank; it would just need final honing to produce the shaving edge. H1 steel is a work-hardened steel that has no carbon in the composition. Nitrogen replaces the carbon in the metal to produce a truly rustproof steel.

Obviously there is a lot of information that needs to be reviewed by the companies in Solingen before things really get into any form of production. At least there starting, and before the entire industry is gone.

Chris, that is a most excellent idea. I didn't consider sintered or injected metal powder, as I don't know much about them and have no experience with them. So a few questions;

• What are the attainable material properties with an injection molded metal piece?
• Can they be made hard enough?
• Are they tough or brittle?
• Can the edge be cold worked or heat treated to increase the hardness on the final product?
• How about honing, any special concerns?
• Do MIM pieces take to INOX hardening? I have a suspicion that the conversion to martentite might be easier with something which is starting out without the well defined autentitic nodules in the base.

Again, this is a great concept, and certainly opens up the door to very interesting and complex designs similar to multi-grinds with little to no additional work except in the mold making. At that, the molds could be sintered metal produced in virtually any shape that a solid modeler could create.

Take care,
John

John,

I'm gonna start a new thread pertaining to MIM & H1 to keep the stuff organized better -- stay tuned...

Here's the new thread

Where they moved the manufacture base to would have a tremendious impact on their potential sales.....
China, Pakistan, India for example would be a kiss of death to the whole idea simply because no matter how far advances in quality have come from these countries, they have a world wide stigma of being inferior goods and workmanship. I have to add also, that even tho they have made advances, they do in many cases solidly deserve that stigma.

Eastern Bloc countries would be better, but the reputation of Solingen will carry alot of weight for them, just as Made in USA does. The world buying steel and knives know Solingen makes some of the best knives in the world and often buy accordingly.

Marketing razors would have to be done on all levels, not only where but how to sell them. Home parties will fail simply on the fact that unless the demonstrator is skilled enough to shave the guests there is no connection drawn for the impulse to purchase. Having worked that kind of sales routine personally, I can assure it won't work. No emotion at an in-home sale is no sale.

knife shops would obviously sell them, but so should upscale retailers. Macys, Neiman Marcus, Sears, (a Craftsman straight razor with diamond plate look rubberised handles would sell like hotcakes at xmas time!) etc. until Target and Walmart wanted in on the game, then secondary retailers would follow suit.

The whole kick off has got to be marketing. Gillette employs more merketing people then manufacturing people. How long can you go through day to day life befoire seeing a Gillette Fusion commercial or ad? That's the key. Start showing more men the folly of the cartridge and the beauty and elegance of the straight....mens magazine reviews, that kind of thing, then advertisements. Look at KOS with all it's FHM awards....

Want a tactile example? Dyson vacuums. Hoover has been selling vacuums for ever, selling the same basic thing with a different look. Orec comes along ans sells the bowling ball trick from his 6 lbs vac that works on the exact same principle as Hoover, but it sells. Why? Gimmic. The bowling ball impresses those ignorant of what it actually means. (it means nothing incidentally, any vac with a new bag setup through a funnel will lift an 8 lbs ball- it's physics not good housekeeping) Next is Kirby selling a 20 lbs all metal vacuum door to door (tupperware style in home appointments) that works on the exact same principle..... they sell well because of the idea and impression of quality and durability over a plastic POS on the department store shelf. See where we're going yet?

Rexair has made the Rainbow vacuum for something like 80 years, useing a totally different concept (several other manufacturers use the same concept)- water instead of a bag. Rainbow is sold in home like Kirby and sells itself on the simple merits of it's concept by proving how poor the common vac is at what it does by design and how unhealthy it is. Sharper image introduces the Ionic breeze and talks about air quality (mentioning how bad a vacuum is...) and is ridiculed by the entire industry until, that is, Orec introduces his version. Orec doesn;t ridacule the vacuum since it's his bread and butter, but simply attacks the Ionic breeze and filter type purifiers.

The whole issue leading up to this is the lack of effeciancy of a filter in a vacuum bag and an air purifier. So, Dyson comes along and decides instead of competing with Hoover on their level he'll go upscale. Instead of competing against Kirby and Rainbow in home, he'll do retail. Instead of useing a bag or cartridge filter that doesn;t work or a tub of water that can spill, he'll use something a little different and put that piece in the middle of that spectrum both price point and retail location.

When Dyson first came out it was $800. Rainbow and Kirby are close to $2000! Dyson forst came out at upscale retail stores and the demand allowed him to go to secondary stores.

So, quiz time- remember the main issue from 2 paragraphs back? See how marketing the issue and legitimate short comings of other products created the consumer, the nitch, and the market for the product?
That is what the straight companies must do. With the help of the ansciliary companies (cream manufacturers, brush companies, gentleman's shops, etc) they can compete against the 'King' and lure more people to the light.

Sorry for the long post

Originally Posted by Steelforge

Sounds like a great idea. I'm in need of a new career too so if they want an apprentice razor forger/honer I'm their man - I'll even up roots and move to Germany!

Amen! I've already lived there once. I wouldn't mind doing it again.

Originally Posted by Justme-

Sorry for the long post

Hey, if it's a good post, no problem.

I don't see what all the 'hubub' is all about

I mean, Boker is still making knives. They just need to roll out those old grinders (and it sounds like they already are), and get to the razors!

Sell them in the 'traditional' knife carying avenues, and then we have at it!

I think some of us are over thinking this....

C utz