Thread: Damascus Razor? Wilbert...

Agreed. But WE know...and that's what counts. - John

Originally Posted by minstrel

Like it or not, John, most people will continue to call pattern welded steel "Damascus". I think even people in the know refer to the original Damascus steel as "wootz", and pattern welded steel as "Damascus", in an "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" sort of deal.

Thanks for all the great information guys! I would love to acquire a true Damascus steel razor but realize that if I was to purchase one someone else in my house would probably use it on my 'soft goods'.

Thomas

Whenever your looking at vintage blades you have to take the name on the blade with a grain of salt. As has been said in those days it was buyer beware and manufacturers could say anything they wanted to say and make any claims they wanted. Some of the old razors have these rediculous sounding names which actually are true sometimes but they mean nothing. I think your razor is a plain jane carbon steel razor or maybe we could call it a Ferro-magnetic-ultra alloyed shaving instrument. Hows that, make you feel better about it eh?

Good point big spender! As a follow-up I wanted to share with you the email I received from the gentleman who originally sold this to me...even after I gave him a POSITIVE feedback on ebay...101customchoppers101.

My ebay feedback "Item not a true damascus steel razor. But seems sharp and relatively quick shipper." (NOTE: I gave him a positive rating; not negative or neutral)

His response...

101customchoppers101..."that blade is a true damascus blade..not all blades were asid eched..you should do some resarch and have asked me before leaving feeback like that.."

Oh well. All of your feedback is even more supported by this link. Look at the same razor and how much it went for...
http://cgi.ebay.com/Two-celluloid-ha...em300073607171
Two celluloid handle st. razors,Wilbert and Wester Item number: 300073607171 - sold for $9.26.

You guys have been awesome with the feedback and history lessons!

This link is very interesting:
http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9809.html#ToC1

Chris

Originally Posted by drmoss_ca

http://www.tms.org/pubs/journals/JOM...9809.html#ToC1

Chris

Chris, that link is the definitive article to date. I would not qualify vanadium as an impurity. It functions as a carbide former and helps keep the steel grain structure from getting too large. The simple reason that wootz disappeared was that the native sources for ore in India ran out, or that it became cost prohibitive to mine the veins any further.

Aside from the earlier mention of making the carbon distribute better throughout the two welded materials, the smiths were cheap. They wanted a way to make very expensive steel go much further than using it as the exclusive material for the whole blade. Lots of blades (axes, knives etc.) were made by welding a thin strip of steel as the edge and the back/spine would be a low grade iron. Someone probably made a mistake and corrected it by folding the material on itself to recover and start over. Later they noticed a more decorative pattern and then started playing with the aesthetic.

Hard and soft layers? That concept is still rooted firmly in mythology about smithing. Some how it won't die, and it should. I know a handful of very good smiths who have the knowledge and equipment to make such steels, but frankly, an ordinary or historical smith would not waste the time or money to do it. It's simply not necessary to do this when perfectly good tool steels are available that will harden equally well with each other and give good contrasting layers.

The Japanese factor, actually not just the Japanese but the Vikings, the Romans, who ever made bloom steels before them, is quite simply a method of cleaning the bloom steels. Blooms contain silicates/slags, charcoal bits and various crud including bubbles from the gases liberated during the smelting process. All those have to be removed. Folding at welding heats squeezes all this dross out and closes up the air holes. Again, no mystery, no magic, just practicality. If you leave an air bubble, that introduces the possibility of a welding flaw and either ruins the mechanical potential or the aesthetic potential of the blade. Although I have to say, that the Japanese are much less worried about some flaws on blades than in the US.

An etch would test this razor for pattern. That can be done simply with some light etchant like lemon juice or apple cider vinegar. Either will do the job to "prove" the pattern and the oxides remaining behind can easily be polished away leaving shiny behind again.

Hopefully this discussion is helpful.

Wikipeida also has a fairly decent description for the layman.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

The group's beter educated members may want to contribute and clean up the description there. Currently, there's a discussion going on as to whether the damascus steel section should be merged with the wootz steel entry.

-Pete

Originally Posted by Pete

Currently, there's a discussion going on as to whether the damascus steel section should be merged with the wootz steel entry. -Pete

It is an interesting exercise in correcting the nomenclature. To me the differences are fairly clear if the origin of the materials are considered.

Wootz is made in a crucible. Practically all the reputable folks studying this ancient material agree that's how it was manufactured and the folks who are making it today agree that it's one of the criteria for labelling both old or new material. Scientific criteria from an alloy perspective are clear as to whether the crucible steel matches wootz criteria. Surface appearance has a more crystalline structure and less of a layered structure. It's not made by cooking a bar of modern alloy steel.

Pattern welded steels, often called damascene or damascus by popular usage, are materials that could originate from a crucible or bloomery process (or modern steel mill), but are characterized by differing layers in the final product irrespective of alloy composition or origin.

As noted before, many cultures producing irons and steels beginning with China maybe 2500 BCE, would have used pattern welding to be frugal with the expensive steels. Wootz was based on a particular method and likely a very particular alloy combination from the Talwar area in India. When the native ore ran out or became too expensive to mine, wootz production pretty much came to a halt and was nearly lost. Pattern welding has really never stopped.