Thread: Custom Razors...Perhaps You Don't Get What You Pay For

A Rather heated discussion with Bill Ellis thats funny.

Originally Posted by MichaelC

...Bottom line, it would be great if we could call made-to-order products 'Custom' or 'Bespoke' and simply call the rest either 'factory-made' for mass produced items, and then 'handcrafted' or 'Artisanal' for one-offs or very small batch production by single craftspeople/artisans. But that's in an ideal world I suppose

- Mike

That's exactly what I do Mike, in the same way as when I am selling a long burgundy red strop I don't wrap up a short black strop instead - it pays to be precise in the way you do things. 'Custom' aka 'bespoke' is one-off to me while a limited, hand crafted run is a limited hand crafted run - I know you get the picture!

There is no reason why we shouldn't strive for an ideal a world as possible and kick all the tedious obfuscation out of the window.

And 'artisanal' - sheesh, there's that hideous word again, one which I will never use to describe what i do. Hand-made is good enough.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

A Rather heated discussion with Bill Ellis thats funny.

I know right, he's such an amiable chap that was the day I realised getting into 'discussions' with certain individuals was just an exercise in pointlessness - especially when done on the interwebs...

Originally Posted by pixelfixed

A Rather heated discussion with Bill Ellis thats funny.

Careful Pixel - you don't want to get on Bill's s*@t-list as some here have, entertaining as it is to read...



Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by MichaelC

For sure these terms are much of a muchness in technical meaning, and really like Jimmy says truth be told it's just to sell more products. I think a high quality product will always speak for itself despite how its manufacturing methods are labeled.. But I just meant that the term 'Custom' is often an American used term that at least in the knifemaking world doesn't strictly mean 'made to the customers specifications' as one would correctly understand it to, rather it is used to distinguish mass-production from, I suppose, small-batch production by a single craftsperson.

The word Bespoke is more of an English term, which although commonly is used to describe garments, does technically encompass any made-to-order product.
I mentioned this only because some years ago I had a rather heated discussion with Bill Ellis regarding the meaning of the term 'custom' as it relates to handmade cutlery.. and I was pointing out that technically it does mean 'made to the customers specs' rather than just being handcrafted from the artisan's imagination as a one-off or limited run etc.. That conversation led nowhere fast, but I took away from it that at least American knifemaking folks (makers and buyers) have really defined that word in their own unique way.

So, anyways, that's all I was trying to convey

Bottom line, it would be great if we could call made-to-order products 'Custom' or 'Bespoke' and simply call the rest either 'factory-made' for mass produced items, and then 'handcrafted' or 'Artisanal' for one-offs or very small batch production by single craftspeople/artisans. But that's in an ideal world I suppose

- Mike

Good points here, especially the reference to knifemaking. Example-



Two Randall knives. The craftsmanship and or/artisan factor as relating to these blades is without question. Want one? Four year wait (unless you buy one from a private shop or owner).

Neither are "bespoke".

The blade on the right is a Model 27...right off the shelf.

Blade on the left is a "custom" Model 15...may or may not be another like it. The handle on this is a green micarta and a 5 layer spacer at the hilt, no finger grooves. The stock model is black micarta, finger grooves, no spacers.

The blades and hilts on both are stock items. They were not made from a special pattern or exotic material. You could order one (or both) just like them if you wanted. To me, neither is "bespoke". Both are artisan, one is custom. Way I look at it anyhow.

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

That's exactly what I do Mike, in the same way as when I am selling a long burgundy red strop I don't wrap up a short black strop instead - it pays to be precise in the way you do things. 'Custom' aka 'bespoke' is one-off to me while a limited, hand crafted run is a limited hand crafted run - I know you get the picture!

There is no reason why we shouldn't strive for an ideal a world as possible and kick all the tedious obfuscation out of the window.

And 'artisanal' - sheesh, there's that hideous word again, one which I will never use to describe what i do. Hand-made is good enough.

Regards,
Neil

ar·ti·san·al
ärˈtēzənl/
adjective
adjective: artisanal
relating to or characteristic of an artisan.
"artisanal skills"
(of a product, especially food or drink) made in a traditional or non-mechanized way.
"artisanal cheeses"


I hear you Neil. But now apart from the sort of overused use of the term and the extension of it to encompass more than simply food and drink, what is your specific disdain for the word?

- Mike

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

Careful Pixel - you don't want to get on Bill's s*@t-list as some here have, entertaining as it is to read...



Regards,
Neil

I'm almost afraid to ask, who's Bill Ellis?

I simply do not like it because of the 'anal' suffix, though that seems quite fitting for most users of that word. From feedback received, I gather that I am not alone.

I also acknowledge:
'petroleum transfer operative' (filling station attendant aka gas jockey);
'mixologist' (barkeep or bar man);
'team leader' (supervisor);
'sanitation engineer' (janitor);
'admin. assistant' (secretary);
'refuse operative' (bin-man, garbage collector);
'domestic service technician' (cleaner);

I say I acknowledge them, but I don't have to like them - I don't like any fancy name for something ordinary, but thats just me (OK, its a lot of others as well...).

To paraphrase Jimmy, I find it all a load of b/s - weasel words to hide behind.

I quite understand if you see things differently - each to his own.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Phoenix51

Good points here, especially the reference to knifemaking. Example-

Two Randall knives. The craftsmanship and or/artisan factor as relating to these blades is without question. Want one? Four year wait (unless you buy one from a private shop or owner).

Neither are "bespoke".

The blade on the right is a Model 27...right off the shelf.

Blade on the left is a "custom" Model 15...may or may not be another like it. The handle on this is a green micarta and a 5 layer spacer at the hilt, no finger grooves. The stock model is black micarta, finger grooves, no spacers.

The blades and hilts on both are stock items. They were not made from a special pattern or exotic material. You could order one (or both) just like them if you wanted. To me, neither is "bespoke". Both are artisan, one is custom. Way I look at it anyhow.

You are quite right, there is a good example here - namely the maker or you confusing the words 'bespoke' and 'custom' - I have underlined and made the font bold where those words appear. They are not mutually exclusive - they are the same thing, therefore one of you is in error here.

However, at least 'artisan' is used with its proper meaning intact, so not all bad. It is not really a way of 'seeing' it, it is more a way of using the language as best you can and in its intended form.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Phrank

I'm almost afraid to ask, who's Bill Ellis?

WHAT,he is the most famous Razor maker on the earth,just ask him.
He is actually a very talented guy,just a little over the top