Thread: Wade & Butcher Comeback

Originally Posted by UKRob

I'm going to try an analogy here and see what people think. Not so many years ago there was a British car marque - Rover - that went bust. Up until the last few models it was classed as a premium make so the name itself held some value and ended up in China along with some plant, tooling and equipment.

If the Chinese owners of the marque were to introduce a modern vehicle, assembled in the PRC but badged as Rover, does that car have any link to the vehicles built in Britain? There may be a partial link in that some machine tools may still be turning out parts - but that's about it for me. The link has been broken because the company stopped trading and no-one involved in the original enterprise is involved.

So, here's how I see the W&B current proposal - as a company W&B has not operated or traded for many years. The plan to make custom blades, albeit with a W&B influence, in South Africa using Swedish Steel, is no more to do with Wade & Butcher than if you ask one of the USA craftsmen to make the same blade. The connection was lost when the company stopped trading, I can't see that stamping the name on a blade brings that connection back.

I hope no-one sees this as criticism of Michael's plans - it's certainly not meant that way.

A fair point...to stick with automotive analogy I'll flip this one around to make a counter-point (and as a disclaimer, this is not meant in any way to start an arguement...just looking at your fair point from a different angle)..

Before WWII a company named Willys Overland created and marketed what would become the Jeep to the US Government based on a series of requirements issued for the war. Lots of companies submitted designs in the short time period allotted, and Willys won. When the contract was awarded, however, Willys only made a very small number of those vehicles and the design was licensed to lots of producers...on of whom eventually became known as Jeep (AM General) some time later. Fast forward again several decades later and the brand has been passed along, and while omnipresent in some form (unlike W&B which to be fair has not had a product in quite some time) the brand has changed hands numerous times. Production methods changed, designs were modernized. Chrysler bought the brand, Daimler bought Chrysler, and then spun it off again. All the while, the Jeep remained in spirit and design cues harkened back to the original Willys Overland in the form of an iconic grille design. Modern Jeeps are no more related to the original Willys than a custom, W&B stamped, new production razor would be related to an original FBU...but people will likely be drawn to them none the less.

Long story short, the new W&B could be similar in a lot of ways...many things have changed, but the opportunity to revive and maintain the iconic design, even if modernized a bit, is still a marketable and noble opportunity. I don't feel it cheapens the brand in the least...it just means it is evolving.

Originally Posted by Denvernoob

A fair point...to stick with automotive analogy I'll flip this one around to make a counter-point (and as a disclaimer, this is not meant in any way to start an arguement...just looking at your fair point from a different angle)..

Before WWII a company named Willys Overland created and marketed what would become the Jeep to the US Government based on a series of requirements issued for the war. Lots of companies submitted designs in the short time period allotted, and Willys won. When the contract was awarded, however, Willys only made a very small number of those vehicles and the design was licensed to lots of producers...on of whom eventually became known as Jeep (AM General) some time later. Fast forward again several decades later and the brand has been passed along, and while omnipresent in some form (unlike W&B which to be fair has not had a product in quite some time) the brand has changed hands numerous times. Production methods changed, designs were modernized. Chrysler bought the brand, Daimler bought Chrysler, and then spun it off again. All the while, the Jeep remained in spirit and design cues harkened back to the original Willys Overland in the form of an iconic grille design. Modern Jeeps are no more related to the original Willys than a custom, W&B stamped, new production razor would be related to an original FBU...but people will likely be drawn to them none the less.

Long story short, the new W&B could be similar in a lot of ways...many things have changed, but the opportunity to revive and maintain the iconic design, even if modernized a bit, is still a marketable and noble opportunity. I don't feel it cheapens the brand in the least...it just means it is evolving.

You're absolutely correct!

And the current "Jeep" brand is no more a Jeep than I am the Prince of Wales... But, unfortunately I'm old enough to remember the old Jeeps!

Originally Posted by Druid

You're absolutely correct!

And the current "Jeep" brand is no more a Jeep than I am the Prince of Wales... But, unfortunately I'm old enough to remember the old Jeeps!

At least nobody referenced DeLorean....hehehe...and it's a shame you aren't the Prince of Wales...back on topic!

To illustrate the point that has already been made, vintage, 'original', versus 'new' production. Below you see 5 Case pocket knives of the '048' pattern. Going from top to bottom ;

year 2000
1960-1965
1950s
1940s
1920s

Now to my eye there are nuances the further back you go that illustrate a more attractive grind and construction, though all are basically 'good' knives. The new stuff is crude by comparison to the earlier ones. Not saying that current production stuff isn't good. S&W handguns are not finished as beautifully as the vintage stuff but the current guns are better by far than the old ones. Same with automobiles.

Originally Posted by Denvernoob

Long story short, the new W&B could be similar in a lot of ways...many things have changed, but the opportunity to revive and maintain the iconic design, even if modernized a bit, is still a marketable and noble opportunity. I don't feel it cheapens the brand in the least...it just means it is evolving.

The razors branded W&B in the early 1900s were about as different from those produced by the same firm in 1820s as they will be from the new modern reincarnation. I see it as about the same - the connection is that it is the legitimate brand that they are being made under. I imagine there might have been a person or two who bemoaned in 1900 that the modern blades being pumped out had no semblence to the early days of the company.

Originally Posted by ScienceGuy

The razors branded W&B in the early 1900s were about as different from those produced by the same firm in 1820s as they will be from the new modern reincarnation. I see it as about the same - the connection is that it is the legitimate brand that they are being made under. I imagine there might have been a person or two who bemoaned in 1900 that the modern blades being pumped out had no semblence to the early days of the company.

The W&B Special is a great example of this....in its own right a nice razor for its time, though extremely similar in design to just about every 5/8 square point produced the world over.

The more years after 1870 it was made, the less connection any given Wade & Butcher razor has to the 'original' company (which, as I said, ended in 1825). Samuel Butcher's son Charles largely left the company to one of his managers.

Using that date, many W&B razors aren't 'authentic'. This includes quite a lot of the hollow-ground For Barber's Use models that people get weird about and decide are worth way more than any other razor (they originally cost the same as any other model).

And let's remember, razors were not the central concern of the company, even in their heyday.

Your point is interesting Captain, as I interject a bit between the lines. The only razor's I own come from antique dealers. They deal with so many things and a lot of it is basically trash but the price the strike on the item becomes hilarious. In two years now I have been returning, periodically, to this one Antique Mall where a fellow has a razor I am interested in. He wants $60 for it. I offered him $30 because of its condition. There were a number of things that needed attention, but he flatly refused my assessment. He argued it was old and that was the reason for the price. It has been two years now and the razor still sits in his stall. Because something is old does not always equal good.

Thanks Jimmy for the link you posted. A very good read. And thanks Zack for another example of your always informative posts. Thanks Michael for letting us know a year ahead of your new venture. I wish you the best of luck in your endeavors, and will look forward to putting one of your razors to the stones.

As for the rest...a good deal of the rest of this thread anyway...well....

I don't feel it cheapens the brand in the least...it just means it is evolving.

Evolution is a continuum. The thread is gone....
Somebody needs to have the balls to marque their own product, not commandeer a venerable name and call it a W&B.