Thread: Mastro Livi response

Originally Posted by jkatzman

They are ground very fine and the blade is more flexible thus many of us find it shaves harshly.

In my opinion, different grinds shave differently, but by no means does a more finely ground, more flexible blade need to shave harshly. You just have to shave differently with it. As a matter of fact, some of my best shavers are of that sort and they feel like a feather passing over my skin.

Well, I read the strop thread and I watched Mr. Livi's responding videos.

Personally, I thought the negative comments were excessive, whether well-intentioned or not, but I suppose everyone has a right to an opinion. I guess I'm just not sure why such bashing went on for so long, especially in a thread about strops.

Given that the criticisms were made so publicly, I think Mr. Livi was justified in making a public response. I believe that he defended himself admirably and I have to agree that the honing he showed in the photos was both excessive and wrong. It is pretty obvious that he still is a very skilled craftsman.

Oh, and I still want to buy a Livi strop.

I purchased my Livi from a guy here on the board and I expressed some concerns about the razor. I watched the video and it dawned on me that the problem may have been that the seller told me that he had taped the spine with 2 layers maybe three, I don't remember. Anyway I tried to hone it using various layers of tape and got nowhere so I put the razor away and pretty much forgot about it. Yesterday I pulled it out and redid the bevel on a 4k instead of a one 1k as the Mastro advised in the video not to use a 1k and I used NO tape. I finished it on various synthetic and natural stone and I now have an edge I really like and I am a happy Livi owner. Just my experience.

I would suggest for any future touch ups that you use one, but only one, layer of tape.

I wanted to clear up a misunderstanding about the pricing on my present Damascus Steel razor. Mastro Livi was kind enough to contact me and it was explained that my present stainless steel Damascus razor, if ordered today would be similar in price as what I paid a couple of years ago. When I requested pricing on a new Damascus it was quoted with his artisan not the stainless steel which is much more. I didn't realize I was getting a quote on a different steel and I feel this should be posted to reflect that Mastro Livi is correct in stating there have been no increases. I also received the cost of my shipping the razor which shows how important it is to Mastro Livi to take care of his customers.

I watched the first video and was horrified by the hone wear on the razor. At some point one would hope one would just stop grinding away and take a step back, I can understand why Mastro Livi made the video. Whether or not it would take an edge that is not how to hone a razor and that is not how one would expect a razor to be returned.

I have one Mastro Livi, an Inox custom. The fit and finish is not perfect, you can still see buffing marks on top of the spine and the razor sits off center so you have to be careful when closing. The grinding itself however is perfect, not many custom makers out there can grind a full hollow razor like this and the bevel is small and even.
Im really happy with mine, hopefully anyone that has issues can get them rectified.

I dont usually respond but after watching the Mastro Livi video I'm going to, Mr Livi states in his video a razor that I honed had excessive ware on the spine well I can assure Mr Livi that I'm a stickler for taping razors and that razor had zero spine ware coming in or going back out, and yes Mr Livi I have honed every custom razor out there and still do on a weekly basis and the razor I recieved from Gary was not fit for purpose the edged just kept breaking down and crumbling away, Mr Livi sometimes shit happens just Man up and admit one just slipped through the QC net and put it right I'm not someone who as beef with you I have never owned a Livi razor but I have honed many of them, some of the technical terminology you are coming out with in that video is absolute rubbish, such as compromised geometry increased bevel size and so on, now my criticsm was of the steel don't try and turn it into something else, I hone 200 year old razors with massive spine ware and lots of geometry issues low and behold the steel is still good and they take a wonderful edge unlike your razor.

Even Babe Ruth didn't hit a home run every time he came up to bat ........

My apologies for the belated response.
We just had exam week here and besides the daily straight shave I found no time for my straight shaving hobby.

It is clear from Livi’s response that he is passionate about his razors and produced another slick and well-made +50 minute video.
Having witnessed his previous responses to signs of criticism, I felt it was only a question of time before he would vehemently present his side of the story.

I don't know how familiar Signor Livi is with forums, but having moderated forums myself, I would find it highly unusual if a moderator would contact a manufacturer and specifically ask him for a response to every critical comment that is posted.
I did note, however, that “razorguy”, who is the greatest Livi supporter I know and who - like Livi - also lives in Perugia, Italy and produces these videos in cooperation with Livi, seems to have stopped in September 2016 out of his own choosing to post on SRP, after his "My Mastro Livi razor, at last: a wonderful life experience" thread was closed by the moderator after a run of more than three years and 1053 contributions. So it cannot be said that Livi - through “razorguy” - did not have an opportunity to respond in a fashion typical for forums.

Unfortunately, this latest video does not address the points that I as straight shaver am most interested in:
1.) Why is it that several experienced straight shavers, whose only common contact is membership in a straight razor forum, have such a difficulty in getting an acceptable shave from some Livi razors when they are delivered?
2.) If stropping does not remedy the situation, what does Signor Livi suggest that should be done with a razor? Does he not believe that the most obvious answer for an experienced straight shaver would be a refresher and - only if necessary - resorting to increasingly lower grits until the situation is remedied?
3.) Why does Signor Livi seem to believe that someone would take a perfectly fine Livi razor and start honing “until death does us part” unless there was a good reason for honing?
4.) Why does Signor Livi omit to mention that I had explained in e-mail shortly after the razor was delivered, and also in the SRP thread in question, that this razor never provided an acceptable shave from the first shave on?
5.) Why do experienced shavers who have honed many razors successfully, including setting bevels, have such a trouble honing some of his razors?
6.) Why do honemasters, to whom these razors are sent, come to the same conclusion?
7.) Why is he so adamant that he does not involve his son, if - as long as a strict quality control is maintained - this could transfer his knowledge and ensure continuity of the line?
8.) What has the problem of a Livi razor not shaving properly to do with the fact why and by whom the business relationship with his former north American distributor was dissolved?
9.) Does Signor Livi mean to insinuate with such unwarranted comments that these criticisms of his work could be part of an orchestrated campaign against him?
10.) But most importantly: Would Signor Livi ever consider that the root cause of the problem was not excessive honing, but that one of his razors could possibly have provided an unsatifactory shave from the start?


When I tried initially a refresher, progressing only later to coarser grits and ever more frustrating attempts to solve this riddle, I had not expected that this razor would resist all my attempts - or the attempts of the honemaster I eventually sent it to.

Of course, I am guilty of mistakes myself:
In hindsight; instead of resorting to techniques that produced (and continue to produce) excellent results for me in the past and persisting, I should have returned the razor right there and then, after the first shaves, notwithstanding all the expense and hassles by courier companies and Italian Customs, and asked Signor Livi to either bring it to a state fit for the purpose, or refund the money.
As an excuse; I had just never imagined it could get that bad with a Livi razor, but now I know better.

In the end, this razor turned out to a rather unpleasant experience that bore no relation to the money and time invested in it and I would rather book this experience in my memory as "lesson learnt".

I had buried this chapter and asked Signor Livi to dispose of the razor as soon as he told me in his e-mail “The razor cannot be repaired because of severe damage caused by improper and excessive honing which rendered the blade useless”, but I am glad to hear that he somehow seemed to have been able to revive his lost son contrary to his own e-mail and wish him the enjoyment with it that I could never find.


My apologies to all for this lengthy reply and I do hope that I can close this chapter now for once and for all.



B.

Originally Posted by beluga

As an excuse; I had just never imagined it could get that bad with a Livi razor, but now I know better.

I'm sorry to hear that you got a lemon and couldn't get satisfaction from the vendor. I understand Mastro Livi vehemently defending his reputation, but had he simply sent you a replacement, regardless of the damage he'd be seen as a hero instead of a bum. Honey rather than vinegar is always preferable.

I've had a half dozen of Livi custom Damascus razors and all of them were great in quality of shave, and in workmanship. AFAIK, this recent batch of what I assume are production, rather than custom razors, is the first time there has been criticism by multiple end users.

Whether the rumor that Mastro's son Luca is involved in the razor manufacturing is spurious, or factual, I don't have a clue. I just wish he would have handled this differently. It would have been a happier outcome for all concerned.