Shumate cracked

Hey all I got a razor on the bay from a blurry picture and it arrived with a crack... It's a shumate toungsteel snt Luis. eBay refunded and said keep it so I'm tempted to use it. That part of the blade doesn't seem any more flexible by fingernail than the rest .should I just use it as is and oil the crack? Or wax? I was going to hone it tonight and see if it goes normally.

How hot to mess with the heat treatment? I was thinking of putting the edge in warm water and soldering the crack quick with 60/40. Or would that make more stress than allowing the blade to heat a bit. Can I re heat treat it in a oven?

Any thoughts?

Matter

I know Leonard /bouchie has done some silver soldering of cracks and stand by them. Ive never tested one myself. Send him a pm.

Here is the picture of the razor.

Try to hone it up and see what happens.if there is any flex or pinch at the crack you will feel it on your skin.
If you are happy with the shave and the crack seems stable, live with it.
Any repair would cost more then the razor is worth it this point. IMO.
:chapeau.

Hard to see where the crack is located in the photo. If it’s close to the toe, you could consider turning the razor into a shortie.

I have a couple of candidates sitting in my drawer that I plan to attempt that with. Their cracks are too long to be repairable.

More than 180 degrees will make the steel soften.
Attachment 347156

Shhhhhhh... thats science... dont toss that stuff around here!

Hay Steve! :D

Hey Magpie!

180F? That seems nuts. I get to that temperature just stropping!

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Originally Posted by Steve56

Hey Magpie!

180F? That seems nuts. I get to that temperature just stropping!

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180 degrees Celsius.

Updates with this razor, after the first honing session and the razor felt smooth and silky for 1/4 of a pass. I finished off the shave with extra stroping a decided dull feeling razor.
My thoughts; the smile of this razor makes lots of rolling necessary and each part of the blade seas less time on the hone with more pressure on each section of blade.

Hone session 2 ; back to honing under running water, finished at nanawa 8 super, using pasted canvas caused the edge to look chippy under cheep USB microscope. Back to the hones, sanded the passed canvas and edge looks more uniform through out after the Strops. It Tree tops the finest arm hair with no resistance, let's see if the edge lasts a handful of shaves or just 1/4 pass again.

I had a pipe razor that was doing that. After looking reeeaal close, I could see microscopic pores all over the blade, extending thru the bevel. The steel was rotten thru n thru. It'd hone up but edge would crumble like you describe. :shrug:

Update; free shumate toungsteel razor. Can you get a lasting edge on it?

Got through 1.2 passes before it starts to miss hair..
Went back to my folding kamasori, it sits on the hone dead flat and is easy to maneuver. I honed it like an normal razor. Interestingly with the narrow tang it needs more than minimum stroping pressure.

Back to honing the shumate, used same procedure but with 2 layers of electrical tape. The bevel is noticably smaller. Used one hand rolling and thought about just keeping the spine on the stone.

The topping arm hair test is way werse, bends the finest and makes sound on the middle stuff.

Will is shave ok?

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Originally Posted by mattnat

Back to honing the shumate, used same procedure but with 2 layers of electrical tape. The bevel is noticably smaller. Used one hand rolling and thought about just keeping the spine on the stone.

The topping arm hair test is way werse, bends the finest and makes sound on the middle stuff.

Will is shave ok?

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Test the edge of the whole area to pass the basic test, and then shave. If there is only an uncertain edge state, it is difficult to enjoy a shave.
Attachment 347290

I remember comments that the shoemates are quite hard, would you expect that they would take many more laps at each stone?

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Originally Posted by mattnat

I remember comments that the shoemates are quite hard, would you expect that they would take many more laps at each stone?

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It is recommended that you first learn to test and understand the edge state. Then you can correct your razor edge to the best state. The following web pages can be referred to for learning.
https://shavinguniverse.com/edge-pro...sment-methods/

There is this thread that has a lot of pictures. The absolute in honing is the bevel must truly make a perfect apex the whole length of the edge. A very dull edge looks more like a U, to get it where it can shave it needs to be a V. I asses that with a loupe. Looking straight down on the point of the apex. Any sparkle or a solid white line and it is a no go.
Sometimes with old razors them is invisible damage to the steel right at the edge. When you hone it, it no longer has structural strength and crumbles very quickly. Sometimes that resolves after a couple of tries at honing, other times not fast enough to make it seem salvageable.
https://sharprazorpalace.com/honing/...ggestions.html

It worked! Silky light WTG and XTG. I need to work on skin stretching ATG but I like the razor now,

So many variables! Was it the one layer of tape making a better angle ? The
Slightly different honing approach or getting down to fresh steel?

That was a ride.

Matt

Hay all

I decided to refresh after 2 shaves when shaving was getting not great. then test tested with flywraping thread on kitchen skale... Any guesses what happened? Some part of the edge were good and some were way bad. Also when I looked along the edge with cheep USB 40/1000 microscope I found round divots is the edge. It took forever to get most of the divots out at 1000 grit and tried more pressure with a finger on the trouble spot and tore a chunk out of the edge( vue on 40/1000 magnification only) it was thumb pad test well at low grit.

Back to bevel set again and after many many stokes I started to wonder if it matters. Proceeded up through the stones and strops and after a ok ish shave wanted to check in with you all.

I'm lapping the stones before use and using shapton GS hr 1000/4000 and nanawa super 8000.

I still have the worn in latego diy strop that seems to work the best for me but have not tried a big name model to compare.

The below pic is 1000 magnification of the chip after a shave and the the other pic is the japanese razor with a edge that is good for couple more shaves. The japanese edge looks way more consistent at other points as well.

Maybe it is my skin with rolling x vrs the with a dead flat razor.
The least consistent parts of the edge are under the crack.
It doesn't seem more flexible but who knows.

Bread knife or live with the imperfect?

Matt

That steel looks rotten to me. That bevel should be clean and brite. I'm seeing the dark stains I've seen in other razors with crumbling edges. Like the pipe razor I mentioned.

Kinda looks like devils spit all across the bevel. Chippy and ragged edge. Might be fightin' a loosing battle with that one.

Hey there
The devil's split! Oh man I got to look that up.
The shumate thread was so glowing I got a bit invested...
Roten seems likely so I bread knifed it. It's now a less aggressive smile and tests ok. Felt smoother on the stone as well. Does it still look off?
The last one looks different it was taken before I started honing as a "before" my impressions were like the first 3 picks

It could be better but with all the deep scratches it is hard to tell for me. You're not putting down an even scratch pattern. That also throws me off. I'd take it to a 1k stone and clean up the scratch pattern. Make sure you have a proper bevel set across the entire edge. Then go to a 2k or 3k and remove all the 1k scratches. Then get a good look at it.
Seeing the white line along the edge is a sign of no bevel set. And if you can't get a clean edge and bevel at 1k then set it aside and come back to it another day. It may come together after a few more tries.

Shumates are great razors. But when they get damaged from improper storage no razor can recover after too much. BTW, Devil Spit is the black that you find on the steel. It can be surface rust but most likely it is rust that has penetrated the steel and you just see the darkness. After grinding or honing the devil spit it can open up a lot of worse rotten steel underneath. It's hit-and-miss to correct. Sometimes you get lucky. Other times it's just junk and not worth trying to fix.

Ok, right on I will remember that about the white line, was it there at bevel set?. I did do more pasted cloth and leather then normal after 1k ,4k and 8k, I'm hoping the white line it is just micro convex.

The bevel set one day and come back to it seems like such a good idea I will try to do it.

What sharpness test do you like for bevel set? I was using thumb pad test, it would want to slice fingerprint but not push cut fingerprint.

I have the shapton 1K and 4K GS HR, I have been using them freshly lapped with 240 dimond. Maybe try unlaped so they are less aggressive?

I wonder if I can avoid buying another stone somehow.

The shave was comfortable but not close. Skimming over the skin with no chatter

Ok back to bevel set

From 1k to 4k is doable. Your just going to need a bit more time on the 4k to remove the scratches from the 1k.

Hey there
I've been working on the 1000 grit for a little while it looks like the white line is visible in most frames. For thumb pad test it push cuts fingerprint in one or two places. Back to it some more.

Ok, brake time, after marker and a edge on Vue at 40 times magnification the parts with marker had less white line than the parts without. I tried, and found out.
How much pressure would you all be using at this stage?

It seems like a dairly hollow razor. I would use a little more than blade weight but its hard to say. Little more than the weight of my hand.
I use the thumb nail test to check bevel set. But this you need to learn. There is an amount of drag that you have to look for while cutting the nail with the weight only of the blade.

The best thing is to watch the edge with magnification. When all rhe sparkles ate gone you got it. But it still takes time to learn.

It took me about 2 years so dont give up. Just keep learning.

When I started honing razors I found it really difficult to grasp the whole 'bevel set' thing. I just didn't get it. Took me lotsa wasted steel but I eventually got there. I was amazed at how bloody sharp a 1k edge can be :o Your last pic in post #27 shows some reflected white line and sparklies. More work needed. Good clear pics you have. After 1k, are you using the pasted strop before inspecting apex? Don't, coz it may form a tiny bur which will reflect. 240 diamond lapping plate can leave deep scratches on stone, I follow 240 with a 500k and then nagura, naniwa brown turd works too. Testing for bevel set, I look down on apex for white line and cut arm hair along entire edge. It will cut through arm hair with no effort. At times I have used a cherry tomato too. These tests combined get me to a set bevel. The scratch patterns in your last pics are much more uniform than previous pics. Keep at it. But as Jerry said, don't spend too much time on a hone. It can become frustrating rather than fun.

I keep the pressure the same thru out the honing process, till the final passes on the finisher.

What you need, is to torque/twist the razor, while maintaining slight downward pressure to the spine. Learn to do that, it makes honing a razor a lot easier.

Its a balancing act that takes time to aquire.

Perfect, thank you for the specifics and the encouragement. I had another crack at bevel set at 1K with no more success.
I went to another razor to test if the edge on shining would disappear again at 4K and it did but this white line from side view stayed. So I went back to the shoemate and did a bunch of work, medium pressure making swafe to feather light on the 4K with the same result; from edge on their is no white line but from the side there is. Maybe it is an idiosyncrasy of LED lighting from all directions on digital 40/1000magnifacation.
I do have belormo 10x coming,
I have not given up bevel set at 1000 but just going to shelve it for a few days. Maybe test a known sound razor at 1000k to see how it looks and tests on thumb nail and under this USB microscope.

Shaving went,well I realized I did not strop before ATG
Just before starting.

Do you all want to test if bevel set at 4k leads to a satisfactory edge?

Thanks!
Matt

Bevel should already be set, at 1k. But if you like honing that much, you can set it with 4k

If your talking a refreshing of a dulling edge, I typically go back to 8k to crisp up the bevel, then to a preferred finisher.

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Originally Posted by mattnat

Do you all want to test if bevel set at 4k leads to a satisfactory edge?

Thanks!
Matt

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Already done and yes it can

In fact with the proper technique a bevel can be set on just about any Stone/Hone, what we have found over the years is that the 1k is the best target hone for bevel sets.

Lower tends to leave some deeper striations that can lead to a harsh edge. We have different techniques to do lower end repair/restore work when using the low grit hones and plates that tear up steel :)

Higher tends to waste time without giving any advantage..

ps:

Read what Outback wrote again it is an important aspect of honing to learn, which many people fail to grasp or even mention..

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Originally Posted by outback

I keep the pressure the same thru out the honing process, till the final passes on the finisher.

What you need, is to torque/twist the razor, while maintaining slight downward pressure to the spine. Learn to do that, it makes honing a razor a lot easier.

Its a balancing act that takes time to aquire.

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This was repeated enough on here, for quite a few Threads to be done about the 1k Shave

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Originally Posted by Tathra11

When I started honing razors I found it really difficult to grasp the whole 'bevel set' thing. I just didn't get it. Took me lotsa wasted steel but I eventually got there. I was amazed at how bloody sharp a 1k edge can be .

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This is just one of them

I think, in the distant and not so distant past we have discussed how the 1k and 4k hones can do just about everything that needs being done to maintain a razor and bring a dud back to life. Many have shaved off the 4k and gotten a great shave.

It's all like the guy who has a garage full of tools and has no clue how to use them. Like they say it's not so much the tools but knowing how to use them. You can accumulate a load of hones and many are nice to use and some can be used for specialized tasks and many are for that nth degree of result which is like a dog chasing his tail. You never get it.

What less experienced folks don’t understand is that what grits that you use to set a bevel depends on what condition the edge is in, and how much time that you want to spend on it. Just like Mike and Glen said.

If the edge is just worn from shaving but the bevel is well developed, I usually do 4k, 8k, and JNat. I could substitute a 12k Naniwa for the 4k and 8k, but 4k and 8k is faster. If you need to set a bevel on something like an eBay special where the bevel is not properly formed, you can do that with a 12k but it will take a long time. Something like a 1k stone is a lot faster, but not necessarily any better.

So you kind of have to think about what shape the edge is in and how much time you want to spend. Rough bevel, rough stone, fine bevel, fine stone.

Personally, I spend more time than maybe I should on finer grits with nice old razors, because you can’t put steel back on a razor, and going slower means minimizing the steel loss when correcting years of wear. But this approach can be frustrating at times.

Remember, running water created the grand canyon. It took a loooong time but it worked.

I see more prospective new honers than not go to microscopic images to hopefully learn.
Trust me. A blazing TPT off a 1K will benefit you more than microscopic images.

We are honing razors. Not splitting atoms.

Put in the work and learn to shave off the 1K or at least know when you can.
Rest is usually gravy.

Should be no need to strop in between passes. That is just silly.

Step one two and three, including 4, 5 and 6 is learning when the bevel is set. And to "know" this you need to hone a lot of razors. Or do a lot of bevel setting on a few razors. Time and practice are key.

Don't know how I missed this thread for so long but a lot of good advice given by a bunch of different members.

One thing I would recommend is to use something finer than the 240 diamond plate to lap your stones. I prefer SIC powder on a glazed floor tile. The grit of the powder depends on the grit of the stone. SIC also doesn't leave the stone with the deep scratches because it is not bound to a plate and it breaks down in size as it is used.