Thread: Possible Heresy...

Originally Posted by ZethLent

The metal scales on a wapi are HEAVY. Probably too heavy. This can (I'm not saying it will but it may, could, possibly), due to the weight, throw off the the razor angle at times during the shave. But I assume those with heavier scales grow accustom to that balance and rarely notice any difference. But give them to a person only used to using lighter weight scales and I am sure irritation could follow a less that stellar shave. Again, this is just supposition...

Indeed. I switch back and forth between a Wapi and a lightweight Rodgers regularly without ill effect

Also I once shaved with a scale-less straight razor. I didn't do it again, but I wanted to try - how can you know until you try? (and bless those who don't have to know, lol)

Originally Posted by Seraphim

The balance will be horrible, and it will be almost unusable.


The Japanese style has a pretty weighty handle, which makes grasping it and using it possible without scales.

I was going to say the same thing, but now I can just say: +1
The scales are a functional item on a western style straight.

Wow, I guess I really AM a heretic!

Hmmm...Well, I can understand that for many high end razors, the balance of the scales is very important. Maybe. Can any restorers/makers chime in here and say how they figure the balance of the scales? Do they work in the material/design/density when they forge the razor or make replacement scales? I'm honestly curious...like I said, I wouldn't be surprised if this was an important element of designing a razor. But I refuse to believe this is true of the Double Arrow. Just...no way. These scales are a joke. There isn't even a wedge--the plastic just widens out at the end...Taking them off would be a favor to the blade!

Well, I am going to do it. Of course, I will be sure to make something to keep the blade AND my fingers safe--I'm no fool. Well, not much of one.

And when I cut my thumb off stropping the thing, you can all laugh at me. I won't mind

I'd wager I handle razors a bit more than the average guy both with and without scales. The razors we typically use are of a design that isn't particularly ergonomic or functional without scales. The scales are more than simply a sheath or protective covering for the blade. They form a cross section of leverage that keeps the blade steady and straight with minimal effort. It is easy to torque a blade without scales, but once the scales are on and slid into a using position, it forms a brace that prevents sideways torque. The Japanese took a different direction and simply built a more usable handle into theirs and didn't bother with scales. I think the western design is actually more clever and provides better resistance to torque, which allows you to maintain a steady angle while using it with relative ease.

That said, I know of a great grand uncle in Cuba that my mother tells me shaved with a double edge razor blade pinched between his fingers and sharpened by sliding it inside a drinking glass to hone it. Just because he was able to shave that way doesn't mean it's a method to be recommended. Likewise, you can shave with a razor that is stripped of scales, but I wouldn't recommend it.

I am in the scales and balance are a + camp. Not to mention the beauty of design. Every time I look at a Japanese style razor I feel like the maker forgot something.

Originally Posted by JMS

I have never quite understood all this talk of balance! I have an 8/8's 1/4 hollow W&B with no scales that I used for many years to touch up my shave with no problems! I also have a traditional Japanese straight with a 5/8 to 6/8 blade with the tiniest daintyest handle I have seen! It was made this way on purpose!
I have never used either for a full shave, but where I have used them, I find no problem!

I don't think blades are so delicately balanced so much as we pay way to close attention to something so unimportant in my book! In other words, I think we we've gotten a little too prissy!

So, why haven't you used that scaleless razor for an entire shave, hmmm. Methinks that for touchups it may be fine. Heck for touchups a Mach 3, or Fusion is fine, but I refuse to have an entire shave with one of those things any longer either!

The Japanese razor with the dainty handle: I've seen and held one of these too. I didn't buy it, as the balance felt bad to me. The difference in the case of the dainty handled Japanese razor and a scaleless western style razor is that you can wrap your fingers around the long dainty handle, but not so much the shorter tang of the western style one.

I just happen to have at my desk here a set of run of the mill, cheap plastic scales. I weighed them--15 grams. They are also approx 14cm long. If you apply Pythagoras' theory, throw in some triginometry, Newton foot pounds (even though I made the measurements in metric!), some fancy equations on the chalkboard, and some hand waving arguments, you will see that they do indeed do quite a bit to balance a razor.

I laso have a set of Wapi stainless scales: 25grams.

Or try this very simple test:

With the razor either closed, or without scales, try to balance it at the tang with on your finger?

--How'd that work out for you?

OK, pick the razor up off of the ground....now open the scales up and try again.

My comp crashed in the middle of my last post...

Here are some shots of my experiment (no pics of the razor falling to the ground under the first test...)

The scales wide open I agree is not a real world balance test, but the scales open as you would have them during a shave I do believe is valid. It simply shifts the balance point up to the tang nearest the heel of the blade, as opposed to at the pivot (it's those Newton foot pounds I tell ya!)


Bottom line--sure, you can shave scaleless. I retract my comment about the razor being almost unuseable. It will certainly be useable, just not my cup of green tea.

I'm in the scales matter camp. I have a 6/8 THessenBruch that my wife overpaid for at a flea market. Shaves great. In it's original scales which were too light in my view, it shaved well but ddin't feel right. They had degraded to the point they were properly counterbalancing. I ripped off the scales after I warped them trying to clear them in boiling water (don't do that by the way), and did find the scale-less blade easy to hone and strop, and I shaved with it a couple times that way and it was ok, but definitely needed scales. I got some cheapo too light dovo scales, again, worked fine but tthe blade was too heavey for the scales and I could tell. Don't get me wrong, it worked fine, and in fact the fact that the blade was too heavy in some ways focused my technique because the blade was realy leading the way, but it felt like I was overcompensating. Cannonfodder then put the blade in a old but really nice and big set of large plastic scales that he had left over, and it makes a big difference. The scales balance out the blade, and the experience is smoother. I don't feel like I have to consciously keep the blade level like I do in overmatched light scales.

I had a W&B recalsd, and it definitely feels different in the custom scales than it did in the original hone - good before and after, but the weight of the scales clearly affects the technique and feel.

So I think scales play a vital role in balancing the blade - you can do it either way, but if the scales don't balance it then you have to with your grip and technicque.

I can see where not having scales would be doable, but I use my scales when I have them at a right angle. I place my fingers on the monkey tail and either right next to or close to the ninety degree scale. This helps anchor my hand/fingers and without it I think I would have a more loose grip. I've got a few W&B blades I've been waiting to hone/use until I have scales on them. I might hone one of them up scaleless and give this a shot.

I too think that scales are important. They protect the blade and help keep your fingers where they belong. But this is a complicated isue. One would need some insight in, for instance, ergonomics... As pics posted before show, there is a balance issue to be pondered upon.
I never tried shaving with a scale-less blade but I did the marker test on a blade I popped out of it's scales and it didn't feel wrong... it worked for me. But shaving is a diferent thing alltogether I suppose. And scales, for me, seem to add to the confort of manouvering the blade. Not to mention ergonomics of the hand...
But to each it's own, I guess... Donae Caesar quid Caesaris est? (Forgive my crappy latin...:P)