Thread: Sheffield steel superiority

heat treated steel continues to change over time. Some will tell you it gets better with age. I don't know for sure- any thoughts Mr. Blue?

So, could be our sheffeilds are actually better than they were back in the day

Who can tell me something about Spanish steel.

I don't know squat about this sort of thing but there is something special about the feel of a Filarmonica.

Here's a pic of my Dovo Renaissance stainless blade. Swedish steel aint bad neither!

Originally Posted by kevint

heat treated steel continues to change over time. Some will tell you it gets better with age. I don't know for sure- any thoughts Mr. Blue?

So, could be our sheffeilds are actually better than they were back in the day

It's a good question, and has been debated about blades other than razors for centuries I suspect. I'm not sure I can get behind the idea that the blade will get better with age. I say this mainly because I have not used a single blade over my whole lifetime that I can conclude that, even among the knives that I have in the shop that I've used for years.

But, there are discussions that the blades can become more brittle over time. That length of time is measured in decades to centuries and has not been fully validated to any degree because the measurement of hardness in "the old days" was not as objective or precise as it is today. It depends entirely on how the blade was heat treated.

A good simple high carbon, low alloy steel, like the Sheffield variety, will not have a large amount of retained austenite after heat treatment. It is the continuing conversion of austenite to martensite that is theorized to occur over time. As that occurs, the new martensite is untempered, potentially measurably harder than the tempered martensite in the rest of the blade. But, it's also more brittle (less tough). In any event, there should not be a significant amount that would affect the entire blade, if the heat treatment was done correctly in the first place.

The Sheffield works realized that the Swedish ore was naturally better because the things they manufactured were better than from other ore batches. What they didn't know then was that the ore was simply cleaner of impurities that we now account for in our selection of steels. I would also suggest that their crucible manufacturing and heat treatment techniques helped a bit as well. Despite it seeming more magical back then, the workers were keen observers of cause and effect and paid attention to what worked better than what didn't.

Louee: As a result, those steels were in high demand any where they could be purchased. I strongly suspect that any number of tonnes were relabeled after being processed in other factories and lent some strength to the legends that those steel centers acquired. So it's hard to separate Sheffield from Solingen or Spain, during the early bloom of steel history, because there was simply too much unaccounted for trafficking in materials. Wars only temporarily interrupted supplies, and the centers that produced the really good stuff were few and far between.

Once the Huntsman and Bessemer influences on process became more widely known and the influence of the minor alloying elements more understood, then steel centers began to experiment and developed solid reputations of their own, although by then, everyone was after stainless' and wunderstahls. The simple steels lost ground as desirable products because the technologies improved the high alloy steels so significantly. I think marketing also played a big role.

Dylan: the Spanish steels, in my mind think Toledo, were good because of the aforementioned improvements in iron processing into steel and as strange as it is, a wealth of slag pits left over from the Romans. While Rome was very good at making steel for its day (and the need for good ironish steelish swords) their processes were not very efficient and left a good deal of iron in the slags of production. Whole fields of the stuff. When the efficiency of production came along it was possible not only to recover all that wasted iron, but to improve the quality of the steels at the same time. And they didn't really have to mine it, it was laying on the surface.

When I look at the pictures of the two razors early in this thread, I want to know what sort of grain structure each has. In part because that would tell me a good deal about the heat treatment and whether the steel in question was of such a potential to benefit from heat treatment techniques to improve the grain structure, or if there were minor alloying elements that helped that naturally when the steelworkers didn't understand grain size.

Still, I will allow that some blades (knives, swords, razors) "feel different". Some folks claim to see a different color in the steel, or even among chefs, the steel tastes different. Some folks claim that it depends on a different maker. And, even if it's not hard science, I can still agree with that idea. I think there's room for spirit in amongst the sciences somewhere and we shouldn't be too quick to exclude that. Afterall, Sheffield had a strong subjective reputation at the time when we didn't know much. This may well be an area where we (and I) don't know much and will look simple to people studying razors in 20 years.

Hope these thoughts help.

I think that Dovo use mostly German steel but on their more expensive models , they tend to use Swedish steel. Tells me something right there.

As for Spanish steel, Toledo steel is a very famous steel used for making swords. I assume the razors come from the same stuff but don't know.

Originally Posted by dylandog

Who can tell me something about Spanish steel.

I don't know squat about this sort of thing but there is something special about the feel of a Filarmonica.

blaireau told me where it was from but I forget. I think it was toledo, and I think he said it was very hard.

One thing I have always found interesting is how somewhere in the early of mid 20th century razor makers in Germany would stamp "Made with finest Sheffield steel" on their tangs while some Sheffields would be stamped "Ground in Solingen". Even now TI still stamps some of their razors "Best Sheffield Silver Steel". Both Sheffield and Solingen achieved legendary status for the quality of their product and rightfully so.

Jimmy,

It was marketing. Germans new that Sheffield steel was smoother than German steel but that the German process for grinding was generally better. Similarly, an Englishman new that the Germans had a reputation for grinding razors well.

I remember when a Sony television from Japan was better assembled than a Sony television from England for example. Everybody new that the Japanese assembled television was of a higher quality and had a better quality picture. It also cost more. Not so today incidentally.

Kind of how so many products here are labeled Euro-whatever...

Jordan

An older post....but well worth a "read".
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