Thread: Expensive mastro Livi vs cheap shavette..

Originally Posted by Philadelph

It's not easy. There are a lot of things to factor in such as time spent, materials cost, DISPOSABLE materials cost (belts, blades, oil, etc.), electricity, etc. Certain aspects of making a razor go quickly and certain don't. Certain procedures are very grueling and/or sensitive and others aren't. It isn't just about "a razor that shaves" as we all I'm sure know. It's a handmade piece of art that has (hopefully) taken a LOT of thought by the maker.

I would think a master would also charge for the skill. I could buy all those things and use all of that time and energy you just listed and still not be able to produce anything like a master's work. The craftsmanship alone carries a price tag, or it should in my opinion!

....So am i right in thinking then that the shave from a LIVI, a cheap DOVO or whatever, if done correctly, can be pretty much the same. I know there are arguments about materials/time/skill/reputation or whatever...but if a cheap fiat uno could drive as well, as fast and handle as well as a ferrari enzo (albeit looking crap) i'd save my money and go for the fiat. At the end of the day does it really matter if you get a good shave? The shave will be just as smooth whether the scales are made from abalone, plastic or if the blade is made from any number of razor quality steels? Put a ferrari badge on it if you want..
(P.S no offence intended to LIVI, their razors are quality!!) Just using them as an example of a very expensive razor.

If you want to move yourself from point A to point B then the fiat will do it. The enzo will do the same thing.

When you walk out the door to make your trip in the fiat the guy across the street mowing his yard catches your attention. When you walk out the door to make your trip in the enzo you don't notice the guy across the street, you're looking at the enzo.

While you're driving the fiat you're thinking about your shopping list, work, what you're going to do after you get to point B. While you're driving the enzo you're completely absorbed in driving the car, the sound, the feel, and admiring the fit and finish of the interior.

After you get to point B... you're at point B.

Well put. I understand that the LIVI is naturally the nicer one, but if we're purely talking about the end result (not fancy scales/blades/pleasure of seeing it shimmer in the mirror) are we not getting a the same end result whether we spend $1 or $1000? I know which one i'd buy if i had the money!! But for a purely practical end result, come on, admit it, you get the same answer!! :-)

You're right Yahoo. In the end the shave from any quality blade should be the same assuming it's honed right. The car example is a bit extreme. The car you pay attention to because of the cost, not the cost relative to a cheaper car but the fact that it was horribly expensive. A Livi on the other hand is expensive compared to other razors but not too expensive relative to other things in life. I stared at my flat screen every time i walked into the room, marveling at the beauty and the price, after a while it became just a TV.

I'm sure in the beginning you marvel at the fact that you're shaving with a Livi, and that fact may make you enjoy the shave much more. But 10 years from now, will you still marvel at it the same way every shave? I doubt it. It's the process as a whole that makes what we do so enjoyable. I don't think the pleasure of someone shaving with a Livi is greater than that of someone shave with a NOS Duck, or even an ebay special that they restored and honed themself.

You may greatly enjoy your Ferrari, but just because it's more expensive and a better vehicle than the one Joe Smith built with his dad, doesn't mean you enjoy the drive more.

Originally Posted by Yahoochiewatchie

Well put. I understand that the LIVI is naturally the nicer one, but if we're purely talking about the end result (not fancy scales/blades/pleasure of seeing it shimmer in the mirror) are we not getting a the same end result whether we spend $1 or $1000? I know which one i'd buy if i had the money!! But for a purely practical end result, come on, admit it, you get the same answer!! :-)

IMO the shave from a true straight razor (Livi, or a vintage str8) Vs a Shavette is not the same and does not yield the same end results and the differences are IMO quite significant. If you are looking for results get a vintage str8 and skip the shavette.

Frankly to compare a Livi to a shavette would be like comparing a
Fine Cuban Cigar to a cigarette. Smoke a fine cigar and a cigarette both will give you a nicotine fix but there is no doubt which one will provide great flavor and an unmatched experience and make it worth your time.

Originally Posted by thebigspendur

A full time razor or cutlery maker is a rare thing. Most guys do it as a sideline or hobbie. I think Tim Zowada is the only full time knife maker in the U.S. Livi make s all kinds of cutlery besides razors. Its not all that time consuming as you might thing. If your skilled you can turn out a razor pretty fast.

As has been said your paying for the guys reputation and experience. Thats why a Zowada cost what it does and an unknown razor maker charges far less though the final product might be just a good.

Lastly, the shave is not the reason to buy these razors. A $50 Eboy special can shave just a good. If that's how you look at it its not for you.

I just had to respond to this one. First of all there are hundreds more full time knifemakers in the U.S. than I think you realize. I know several personally. One in particular completes maybe one or two a month if he's lucky and that is full time. He said maybe 6 solid hours of work a day. His knives sell for thousands and are worth it when you see it up close. Do I have that money to spend? No. But for someone who is that into knives, they would be very happy with one. They are fully functional but just as artistic. Obviously, I also don't think you realize how much time doing certain intricate things may take. One knife may have filework that takes upwards of 20 hours. Now anyone can throw down some repeating pattern like slashes across a spine and call it filework but that doesn't mean it was done well. As for damascus, until you have made some yourself from scratch (I have) then I don't think you will ever appreciate why it fetches prices that can reach hundreds per inch. There are so many things going into a custom that the end user would never even think about.

It is more than reputation and experience. Personally I think some customs are underpriced considering the work that goes in. The shaves will probably all be comparable so no, that cannot really factor into price and it would not be a good reason to buy one.

Originally Posted by Yahoochiewatchie

Well put. I understand that the LIVI is naturally the nicer one, but if we're purely talking about the end result (not fancy scales/blades/pleasure of seeing it shimmer in the mirror) are we not getting a the same end result whether we spend $1 or $1000? I know which one i'd buy if i had the money!! But for a purely practical end result, come on, admit it, you get the same answer!! :-)

Well, I'm going out on a limb here and saying that the Livi is better, even if you discount scale materials, inlays, etc. I only own one Livi, so perhaps I'm lucky with having such a good impression of it, but it is without doubt the most true and balanced blade I have, and that's comparing them with Wapis, Dovos, TIs and vintage blades. One of my Dovos, though a great shaver, is ever so slightly warped, which makes it somewhat more difficult to hone. The Wapis are good, but the balance is all wrong (in my opinion, not necessarily others' opinion!) -- I have rescaled a Wapi and still am not satisfied with the way it sits in my hand.

And so on. The Livi is pretty much perfect in every respect. It is easy to hone (despite being made from hard stainless steel), it's easy to manoeuvre around the face, it keeps an edge longer than my other blades, and yes, it looks good.

I've had the Livi 18 months and hand on heart I honestly feel it is clearly better quality than my other blades, be they factory made or custom, vintage or new. Whether the increase in quality is worth the increase in price is a different matter altogether -- YMMV.

There, y'all can jump down my throat now!

One thing here. The comparison should be of VALUE not absolute price. That value could be artistic, balance, function, whatever. As soon as you say you only think about the absolute cost of the car then that is something else altogether. I think Yahoo is asking what the difference is. I think the car analogy is a very good one. There *are* some functional differences as well (assumption on my part since I don't own a Livi or anything close to that category). Balance and proportion were mentioned.

Surely there are diminishing returns as with most any high end item. It's usually orders of magnitude more difficult to go from 80% to 90% than it is to go from 60% to 70%. It's subjective if that increase is worth it to you.

I believe what Yahoo is asking is "Is it better?". How much better is a matter of degree and how much that's worth to you is subjective.

Quick, you're saying the question here should be one of value, not price. I agree about the price aspect but I disagree about the value part. Value, as you said, is something based on any number of qualities that the end user finds attractive. A vegan may not value bone scales as much as I do, but that doesn't effect the razors ability in the least.

I think the question Yahoo had was whether or not the shave was any better with a Livi than a shavette. Well yes, we can all agree it would be better. Well then someone said what about compared to a vintage W&B, that's what I'm replying to, that's the good question. I think it would be easy to quantify a good shave. Was it smooth, is there irritatio, etc.

So now I post the question as such; if you were to go to a barber, and he shaved half your face with a well honed W&B, or any other vintage razor, and the other half with a Livi, could you tell the difference? In this you are comparing the two only with respect to their ability to remove hair from your face, and I think THAT is the question.