Thread: carbon or stainless, any thoughts?

After doing more research on the subject since this seems to be a recurring topic and I shouldn't rest on last year's information...

I conclude that I don't know the answer. However, I have found some interesting info. SS apparently is a PITA to grind and smiths say they need special equipment. So that explains the lack of spine work and singing razors. Just not worth the time and expense. SS may be more brittle, but that wasn't conclusive, so I think the difficulty of grinding is the problem. Bill Ellis engraves his SS razors, so its not impossible.

Assuming both blades are used regularly and stropped and oiled...theoretically the one with the higher hardness will hold its edge longer. I am not sure when high martensitic SS alloys became widely available, but apparently they can take a good hardening. So, if SS can take the same Rockwell hardness as carbon steel, the edge retention is theoretically the same. Add the corrosion resistance and I would conclude SS is better.

So, does anyone have a rockwell hardness rating chart for the high quality stainless alloys?

In my world of shaving stainless blades hold their edges a lot better than carbon with less maintenance. My Friodurs, which everyone has told me would be impossible to hone, have honed well, and hold a sharper edge than I could have wished for. My carbon blades need TLC. If they don't get it they are no better than letter openers after as little as 3 shaves.

Mind you I care for all of my blades, but the carbons are like the little kids that can never get enough attention. The stainless hold their own and then some day in day out.

Originally Posted by fccexpert

I challenge you to find a single stainless alloy that will reach the hardness of quality high carbon steel. You can come close with some of the martensitic stainless steels, but that's about it. Stainless razors (and knives for that matter) are harder to hone because of the way they behave when passed over an abrasive surface. Stainless steels tend to gall, leading to an uneven edge that is difficult to smooth. Carbon steels do not. It is that simple (or complicated if you want to look at it that way).

Choose your weapon. If you read my post you may have noticed that I said I wasn't sure but I was under the impression. That is a result of my reading posts by other experts such as yourself who are sure. As I said in the post I do agree with you that stainless is abrasion resistant. Some stainless will gall when machined but once the machining, grinding and heat treating are done galling isn't an issue.

According to my co-worker Ed Lombi,who made the Tom Brown Tracker knives for the first few years, the hardest that you would heat treat a blade would be in the range of 60 to 62 Rockwell. Either carbon or stainless can be Heat treated to that level. Like Bladerunner I have had no problem honing my Friodur or my Puma stainless. A bit of a tougher time with ATS-34 and S30V but they came around to be outstanding shavers. I never cared for 440 and most high end knives are using other alloys. I don't know if 440 has been used in razors.

Seems to be a lot of "steel" experts here, I don't claim to be a steel expert nor do I really care how many parts of what or how hard the steel is nor the abrasion resistance of the steel...

Really my only concern is "how good does it shave"????

If you take a second and re-read this thread you are going to find an revealing fact popping up, it is not really SS razors that have a reputation for being hard to hone, it is one SS razor that seems to be in almost all of your posts "The Friodur" honest go back and read from the beginning yourselves.... Those 7/8 and 8/8 worked back Friodurs that are out there seem to have given SS a bad rep, throw in a couple of new warped Dovo's and you have people thinking SS is hard to hone and even harder to get smooth....

Also I have taken quite a bit of rust off quite a few vintage SS razors so lets not start thinking that they are rust proof it is Satin-Less as in two words, as in less likely to stain....

Now if you are really into SS blades the absolute smoothest one I have ever shaved with is a Hess #44 and guess what don't go spending huge money on one either, they are not anything that special, just a very nice good looking, good shaving razor.... Try out a older, smaller sized Friodur also, very, very, smooth edges, I have one in 11/16 that is one of my top blades....

What I am saying here is, SS isn't any harder to hone to a smooth shave, just a few SS razors are...

Originally Posted by gssixgun

Seems to be a lot of "steel" experts here, I don't claim to be a steel expert nor do I really care how many parts of what or how hard the steel is nor the abrasion resistance of the steel...

Really my only concern is "how good does it shave"????

If you take a second and re-read this thread you are going to find an revealing fact popping up, it is not really SS razors that have a reputation for being hard to hone, it is one SS razor that seems to be in almost all of your posts "The Friodur" honest go back and read from the beginning yourselves.... Those 7/8 and 8/8 worked back Friodurs that are out there seem to have given SS a bad rep, throw in a couple of new Dovo's and you have people thinking SS is hard to hone and even harder to get smooth....

Also I have taken quite a bit of rust off quite a few vintage SS razors so lets not start thinking that they are rust proof it is Satin-Less as in two words, as in less likely to stain....

Now if you are really into SS blades the absolute smoothest one I have ever shaved with is a Hess #44 and guess what don't go sending huge money on one either, they are not anything that special, just a very nice good looking, good shaving razor.... Try out a older, smaller sized Friodur also, very, very, smooth edges, I have one in 11/16 that is one of my top blades....

What I am saying here is, SS isn't any harder to hone to a smooth shave, just a few SS razors are...

Exactly.

We can look at metalurgy, and come up with theories of what "should" work better, based on carbon content, rockwell hardness, modulus of elasticity, thermodynamic expantion coefficients, etc....but that really doesn't matter a wet slap, what matters is how does it shave?

My first two Friodurs were very sharp razors, but always felt "scratchy". My two Dovo stainless on the other hand honed up as smooth as any carbon blade out there, and have had great edge retention as well. I was shocked the first time I used a Dovo stainless (my first two razors were the Friodurs, the third the Dovo), as it was quite noticeably smoother than the Frios.

I have since come some ways in my honing techniques, and can now put a decently smooth edge on teh Friodur, but it takes some doing. As these seem to be one of the more popular stainless razors out there, i agree that it is probably why stainless as a whole has gotten a bad rap.


I have another stainless razor on order, so we'll see how that one feels. And I'm also interested in the stainless razors that Rasurpur sells....All in the name os research, you understand!

Here's the edge of the Dovo Renaissance at 200x


Followed by a pic of the Frio edge at 200x, see the little warps and wiggles at the very edge of the Frio? That is unique to the Frios, and what gives it that scritchy feel. I've found that a white pated canvas strop helps smooth that out, but don't have any images of it yet.

For anyone still interested, Stainless steel question re hardness - Sword Forum International

Read the last post. I'm not saying its the end of the debate, but...its good enough for me.

Did you get that razor from rasupur Seraphim?

Originally Posted by Dups

Did you get that razor from rasupur Seraphim?

The Dovo I got from bestgroomingtools, the Friodur from a German Ebat seller.

Originally Posted by Seraphim

Exactly.

Followed by a pic of the Frio edge at 200x, see the little warps and wiggles at the very edge of the Frio? That is unique to the Frios, and what gives it that scritchy feel. I've found that a white pated canvas strop helps smooth that out, but don't have any images of it yet.

Seraphim,
I have seen similar anomalies, and not only on stainless steel blades.
My personal speculation is that the cause is fluttering of the very thin and flexible outer part of the edge during the passage over the hone. It seems to me that it is somehow related to suction between the surface of the hone and bevel side in contact.
Of course this is only a speculation, but I have been able to get rid of the anomalies when I tried breaking the vacuum with adding a layer of tape to the spine.
If I am right with my fluttering theory, not only the alloy is of influence, but also the grind of the razor.

Bart.

OK, this may sound stupid (but I am a newbie) ... How do you know what your blade is made from (i.e. SS or HCS)?

So far I have 2 wapis, which I'm pretty sure are SS, and have just bought a George Wostenholme "pipe" razor. I've no idea what that is... Oh, and I have an Otto Busch "Pirola 2" on the way from John Cowley.

Can anyone help?

Thanks

Greg