Thread: Why all the Mystery Steel???

Originally Posted by L R Harner

i stock remove most of the time but i do have the ablity to forge a bit

the forged vs ground blade is a big fight but im not sure it has any real teeth
see a guy that forges also has to grind after the forging
both if there any good has to go throught a heat treat and thats what counts most (over even edge grinding to an point )

Thank you for taking the time to answer in my thread Mr. Harner. I had always preferred forged steel in my big chopper knives 8"-10" blades as I understand it refines the grain structure. I have always like my big 52100 knives differentially heat treated as well. I guess niether of those things matters with a straight razor though.

I would love to talk to you about making me a custom straight razor out of 52100. I have a 7"x2"x2" block of stablized Wild Olive wood burl that I have been hanging on to for a special project. Maybe a custom straight razor would be a good use for it.

Do you have a waiting list for customs? Thanks!

I know the silver steel is a different alloy. I had to regrind the tips on several razors in my last buy and the Elliot had whiter and flashier sparks.

Originally Posted by mparker762

...so the only thing this would accomplish would be to give away competitive information.

Also, these razors aren't used for chopping open car doors or splitting tree trunks or jute hawsers. They're just for shaving, and Dovo and TI have along and proven track record; the steels that Dovo and TI use, whatever the details of composition or heat treating, have been proven to be sufficient to the task. In that respect they're sort of like Rolls Royce and horsepower - they don't advertise it, but rest assured it's more than enough. That isn't enough for a steel snob but it's sufficient for most people.

+1

When straight shaving was the only way to remove whiskers, the proven shaver was the sales winner. There was some data coming out of Josh's researches that indicates that despite different manufactories, the steels were quite similar.

The phenomena of "knowing" all the relevant materials in knifemaking resulted from makers who would say "this knife is 5160 because I used an old leaf spring from a truck." Which would be true only until the maker or customer found out that not all truck springs were 5160. I can recall that sea change occuring in the late 1980's. Up until then, it was entirely up to the maker to call the steel whatever they wanted. Safe assumptions about steel contents could be made, but when more investigative types came along, all of a sudden, what was said werent' necessarily so. That became a market weapon to criticize the other guy and gather more sales for the more apparently knowing one.

This then becomes cause to question the veracity of the maker (who now appears to not know his stuff) and the relative value of the knife purchased (because there's doubt about what was advertised or how it might have been worked). Notice in all this, there is no using the blade to see if it works....

It's not that "found" steels make poor blades, they could have been exceptional. The Market and its demands seem to drive this process and require a known providence or lingering suspicions remain. There is simply no way to test by looking at a shiny (or rusty or laminated) piece of steel unless the veracity of the maker is absolute.

Now to add to the confusion, some of the steel suppliers have been known to send out bars/billets that were labeled incorrectly. Hopefully that never happens again. Maybe a yard monkey was color blind, maybe he was lazy and pulled something from the wrong stack or they were under the gun to ship something. But it returns us to the requirement that you be able to trust the maker, the steel seller and etc.

The next problem is that the maker won't let you take home a blade and try it out. They don't want it back with scratches all over it. Razors, as has been said, proof is in the shaving and honing. If there's is one thing you guys have taught me, its that. If it don't shave and won't hone, it won't sell or gain any reputation. My editorial about that is there should be more passarounds for new makers especially.

There's nothing wrong with steels that have proven track records, even if we don't know exactly what's in there. There is no need to go whoring off after wunderstahls and unobtainium when a perfectly serviceable blade is working for you.

The end of the argument as to forged vs. stock removal, as Butch as pointed out, is in the heat treatment, but they didn't know that thirty years ago and some still won't let go of bad information. And it's the modern market that has driven the phenomena of requiring perfect knowledge of all the parts.

All this steel talk is getting me pumped. I'm thinking I should run out to the steel store and get some of that wunderstahl and grind me a chain.

Well I'm shot, that used up almost a whole days worth of irreverence.

I am not trying to start any arguments here, and I certainly won't say anything negative about Mr.Harner, but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

As for heat treating, yes, it is definitely the most important thing.

The main thing that I am going to have to wrap my head around is that staright razors are NOT hunting knives, camp knives, or pocket knives. They are staright razors.

I think some of you have misunderstood me about the steels, and you seem to be very sensitive about someone asking about a straight razors. I apologize for asking. As a new guy I didn't realize it was taboo to ask the question. I do not believe I ever stated that I had to have a razor with a certain kind of steel, I was just curious why most of them didn't list it.

I think it is a fair question to ask before spending $200-$800 per razor of my very hard earned money.

On another note, I did go ahead and buy a couple of razors last night, so I am getting rather excited awaiting their arrival.

Originally Posted by Tolly

On another note, I did go ahead and buy a couple of razors last night, so I am getting rather excited awaiting their arrival.

Don't say I didn't warn you about the RAD.

BTW, no one minds you asking any questions about anything .... OTOH, they will answer your questions with their point of view.

I like a forged blade myself just for the romance of the thing but in shaving and honing with blades made by either method I find I cannot tell the difference but I am certainly not an expert of qualified as a metallurgist.

Originally Posted by Tolly

I am not trying to start any arguments here, and I certainly won't say anything negative about Mr.Harner, but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

You are just wrong here and that needs to be made known for the benefit of other members and to stop misinformation.

Read this article written by Kevin Cashen- being into knives you should know who he is: The lowdown on forging

Also, see this post that I posted a while back in response to a similar argument: http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...tml#post292909

The link in that post (not working) is the link I posted above.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

You are just wrong here and that needs to be made known for the benefit of other members and to stop misinformation.

Read this article written by Kevin Cashen- being into knives you should know who he is: The lowdown on forging

Also, see this post that I posted a while back in response to a similar argument: http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...tml#post292909

The link in that post (not working) is the link I posted above.

If starting with nice clean billets like what is provided by todays suppliers I can see the above article being correct. There is just something sexy about a forged blade though . It just seems like makers who forge put their heart and sole into the blade...Does that make sense to anyone else???

By the way Philadelph, I do know who Kevin is, but I had not read that article. Thanks for the link. I am not to hard headed to admit when I'm wrong.

As per Kevin's article: it's all forged stuff in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Tolly

...but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

It's not ridiculous. Forging to refine grain structure is a much more limited process than can be had in a heat treatment process. I can change the grain structure without ever striking the material (thermal cycling), and I'm a smith. Forging is not an absolute requirement. Even as I say that, I can think of some things that are better when forged, where there are corners and stress risers that can't be avoided in the end product and would cause real problems when heat treated. Then, you want forging. It depends on the purpose of the tool as to which methods will produce the best tool. If it helps you buy a blade, no problem with me, it's just that what you believe ain't necessarily so.

I think some of you have misunderstood me about the steels, and you seem to be very sensitive about someone asking about a straight razors. I apologize for asking. As a new guy I didn't realize it was taboo to ask the question. I do not believe I ever stated that I had to have a razor with a certain kind of steel, I was just curious why most of them didn't list it.

I think it is a fair question to ask before spending $200-$800 per razor of my very hard earned money.

In the old days the recipe for steel was proprietary and a marketing tool. I was trying to imply that market forces have changed since then and the customers are more demanding about knowing what steels are used. Maybe the best thing to say is that they are better educated about what they want or what they think is best. I think it's still the responsibility of the makes to develop better educated customers.

And, it is a fair question to ask when that much money is on the line. In the 1950-60 period, there were fewer knife makers and guys like Rudy Ruana and Scagel and Randall had customers that bought a knife to use. So there was a lot of feedback about performance and that drove the market for custom blades. It's merely different in the knife world today than it was then, more talk than action, where I would say the reverse is true amongst razorheads.

Originally Posted by Tolly

It just seems like makers who forge put their heart and sole into the blade...Does that make sense to anyone else???

Definitely makes sense! It just doesn't mean that stock removal contains no heart and soul though! I for one put everything I have into the blades I make using stock removal. It just depends on the person.