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  1. #1
    Gun Runner & Chaser of Pirates Tolly's Avatar
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    Default Why all the Mystery Steel???

    Hi guys. I have a quick question as a newbie trying to get involved in the world of straight razors.

    Why do the manufacturers not list the steel type used in their razors? By that I mean the specific steel type such as 1095, 52100, ATS-34 etc. The only thing I ever see is "Carbon Steel" or "Stainless Steel". Even with the Damascus bladed razors they do not list the make up of the steel. They also do not usually make any mention of heat treat or hardness. This is very frustrating to me!

    I am trying to pick out a couple of razors to begin my straight razor journey, and being a huge "knife nut" as well as a bit of a steel snob, I would like to have as much information as I can get before making my selection.

    I would certainly appreciate any information y'all have to offer on this subject. I am definitely looking forward to my first self administered straight razor shave!
    Last edited by Tolly; 09-26-2009 at 03:55 AM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member blabbermouth JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Welcome to SRP. I've seen some of the custom makers name the steel and the rockwell on their blades but I don't recall any of the larger companies current or vintage doing so. Some of the more knowledgeable guys will no doubt be along with more specific info.

    In the meanwhile there is a cool razor data base in the SRP Wiki here as well as tutorials on all things related tto straight razor shaving.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

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  4. #3
    Faceturbation Addicted Bunny's Avatar
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    i dont know much about steel types but the new Hart razor stated there specs. here is what is said on classic shavings site about them.

    • Each razor is made, from start to finish, by an individual craftsman. The initials on the tang are the maker's assurance of quality.
    • All blades are made from new O-1 tool steel. There are no old forgings or “mystery metal”.
    • All blades are surface ground before and after heat treating. These razors are guaranteed to be straight for ease of stropping and honing.
    • All blades are heat treated in a molten salt bath. The salt protects the blades from decarberization and oxidation.
    • All blades are frozen in liquid nitrogen. The deep freezing assures dimensional stability.
    • All blades are triple tempered for a final hardness of 62 – 63 HRC.
    • All blades are finish honed on a vintage Escher hone and hand stropped. Every blade is “shave ready” right out of the box.

    or look for yourself here
    Hart Steel 6/8 Quarter Ground Straight Razor

    (i have never used or nor do i have any connection to the Hart razor company i am just using this as a example)


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  6. #4
    Electric Razor Aficionado
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    Some do. Hart mentions on their website that they use O-1, for example, and Livi uses 440C and N960 as well as a variety of Damasteel products which I believe are documented steels. And I believe Zowada mentions on his website the steels he uses in his pattern welds. But the market that Dovo and TI are filling doesn't overlap very well with the knife nut/steel snob market, not the way Zowada, Livi and Chandler do. There's also no advantage to Dovo or TI from advertising their steel. They can't gain market share from it - they are backlogged 6-9 months already - so the only thing this would accomplish would be to give away competitive information.

    Also, these razors aren't used for chopping open car doors or splitting tree trunks or jute hawsers. They're just for shaving, and Dovo and TI have along and proven track record; the steels that Dovo and TI use, whatever the details of composition or heat treating, have been proven to be sufficient to the task. In that respect they're sort of like Rolls Royce and horsepower - they don't advertise it, but rest assured it's more than enough. That isn't enough for a steel snob but it's sufficient for most people.
    Last edited by mparker762; 09-26-2009 at 04:19 AM.

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  8. #5
    Senior Member blabbermouth JimmyHAD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mparker762 View Post
    so the only thing this would accomplish would be to give away competitive information.
    I think that has a lot to do with it. BTW, Livi seems to use ATS-34 a lot also. I know Bill Ellis made some with that because I have one. Butch Harner made a great one that I have out of that ball steel 52100 and another out of Decker damascus.

    TI was marking their blades as something like Best Sheffield Silver Steel until they switched over to the new alloy they claim is the hardest and longest lasting with the Silverwings. I like the old alloy and the new equally well from a shaving standpoint. Dovo says that some of their line is Swedish steel but not all and I guess that is a broad statement.
    Be careful how you treat people on your way up, you may meet them again on your way back down.

  9. #6
    Gun Runner & Chaser of Pirates Tolly's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info guys. I will definitely be checking out those Harts. O-1 just happens to be one of my favorite old time tool steels. Works great in everything from a tiny little patch knife to a 10" chopper!

    In todays world of all the new uber-fashionable new fangled designer steels it is refreshing to see a maker use a long time proven performer like O-1.

    I look forward to hanging out and learning a thing or two here with you boys.

  10. #7
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    One more thought: I'm not at all certain that the new generations of wonder steels are terribly well suited for straight razors, nor has there been anywhere near the experimentation with the heat treating schemes necessary to produce optimal results for razors. The stresses that razor edges are under aren't very analogous to those of knives or chisels or drills, they aren't subject to high temperatures, they have extremely narrow honing angles, they must be sharpenable to a much finer edge than knives and chisels, and so forth. And you can't fake out the buyers with marketing prose or grandiose claims, because if the steel isn't great for this application, and if the heat treating isn't great for this application, then the result isn't that he can only cut through 10 ropes instead of 15 - the result is that it pulls his whiskers out by the roots.

    Meanwhile Dovo and TI have their steels which in some cases they have been using for 40+ years and have the hardening and tempering regimens to extract the maximum performance out of it. For the smaller shops, old-fashioned steels like O1, W2, 440C have been around long enough and are well-understood enough that it is easy to get the required results out of them. Some of the most respected stainless razors around are the old Henckels Friodurs and dubl duck and C-Mon stainless razors, which were made from 440C with really outstanding hardening and tempering regimens, and those razors are hard to beat even today. There are quite a few vintage razors made from unknown carbon steel that I prefer to modern razors made from O1 or C136 or some of these other wondersteels. While it would be nice to know just what steel Waterville used, I'd rather shave with it than some razor using a "name-brand" steel that nonetheless doesn't shave as well.
    Last edited by mparker762; 09-26-2009 at 04:36 AM.

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  12. #8
    Gun Runner & Chaser of Pirates Tolly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JimmyHAD View Post
    I think that has a lot to do with it. BTW, Livi seems to use ATS-34 a lot also. I know Bill Ellis made some with that because I have one. Butch Harner made a great one that I have out of that ball steel 52100 and another out of Decker damascus.

    TI was marking their blades as something like Best Sheffield Silver Steel until they switched over to the new alloy they claim is the hardest and longest lasting with the Silverwings. I like the old alloy and the new equally well from a shaving standpoint. Dovo says that some of their line is Swedish steel but not all and I guess that is a broad statement.
    I would love to find one of those Harners made from 52100. Can you offer up any info that would help with where to look, along with maybe a model name/number? Also, do you know if Harner forged his 52100 blades or if he used stock removal method?

    I would imagine that the makers who use Swedish Stainless steel use a lot of Sandvik 12c27 and 13c26. Those seem to be two of their favorites.

  13. #9
    Gun Runner & Chaser of Pirates Tolly's Avatar
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    The stresses that razor edges are under aren't very analogous to those of knives or chisels or drills, they aren't subject to high temperatures, they have extremely narrow honing angles, they must be sharpenable to a much finer edge than knives and chisels, and so forth. And you can't fake out the buyers with marketing prose or grandiose claims, because if the steel isn't great for this application, and if the heat treating isn't great for this application, then the result isn't that he can only cut through 10 ropes instead of 15 - the result is that it pulls his whiskers out by the roots.
    Please do not lump all knife nuts into the gullible pile. Some actually study the science behind the why and how instead of just poke and stab things. Believe me, I get tired of all of the "flavor of the month" steels that seem to pop up every other day, but it is hard to discredit some of them.

    The only drawback I see to using some of the new stainless wondersteels is difficulty in sharpening. On the edge angle topic, I have more than one knife with a combined edge angle 20-25 degrees. Those knives will do a lot of cutting through all kinds of material before needing to be sharpened again. The only way I can get away with ridiculously low angles on knives like that is because they are made from some of the new steels that will allow it.

    However, as I tell people all the time with knives, heat treat is just as important as steel type, maybe even more important. Also, on a knife, we have the luxury of changing the edge geometry as well as profile to the job at hand for that particular blade. I am pretty sure that isn't an option with a staright razor.

    One thing is for certain, you really can't compare the two cutting tools on too many levels.

  14. #10
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    Default

    i stock remove most of the time but i do have the ablity to forge a bit

    the forged vs ground blade is a big fight but im not sure it has any real teeth
    see a guy that forges also has to grind after the forging
    both if there any good has to go throught a heat treat and thats what counts most (over even edge grinding to an point )

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