Thread: Why all the Mystery Steel???

Originally Posted by mparker762

...so the only thing this would accomplish would be to give away competitive information.

Also, these razors aren't used for chopping open car doors or splitting tree trunks or jute hawsers. They're just for shaving, and Dovo and TI have along and proven track record; the steels that Dovo and TI use, whatever the details of composition or heat treating, have been proven to be sufficient to the task. In that respect they're sort of like Rolls Royce and horsepower - they don't advertise it, but rest assured it's more than enough. That isn't enough for a steel snob but it's sufficient for most people.

+1

When straight shaving was the only way to remove whiskers, the proven shaver was the sales winner. There was some data coming out of Josh's researches that indicates that despite different manufactories, the steels were quite similar.

The phenomena of "knowing" all the relevant materials in knifemaking resulted from makers who would say "this knife is 5160 because I used an old leaf spring from a truck." Which would be true only until the maker or customer found out that not all truck springs were 5160. I can recall that sea change occuring in the late 1980's. Up until then, it was entirely up to the maker to call the steel whatever they wanted. Safe assumptions about steel contents could be made, but when more investigative types came along, all of a sudden, what was said werent' necessarily so. That became a market weapon to criticize the other guy and gather more sales for the more apparently knowing one.

This then becomes cause to question the veracity of the maker (who now appears to not know his stuff) and the relative value of the knife purchased (because there's doubt about what was advertised or how it might have been worked). Notice in all this, there is no using the blade to see if it works....

It's not that "found" steels make poor blades, they could have been exceptional. The Market and its demands seem to drive this process and require a known providence or lingering suspicions remain. There is simply no way to test by looking at a shiny (or rusty or laminated) piece of steel unless the veracity of the maker is absolute.

Now to add to the confusion, some of the steel suppliers have been known to send out bars/billets that were labeled incorrectly. Hopefully that never happens again. Maybe a yard monkey was color blind, maybe he was lazy and pulled something from the wrong stack or they were under the gun to ship something. But it returns us to the requirement that you be able to trust the maker, the steel seller and etc.

The next problem is that the maker won't let you take home a blade and try it out. They don't want it back with scratches all over it. Razors, as has been said, proof is in the shaving and honing. If there's is one thing you guys have taught me, its that. If it don't shave and won't hone, it won't sell or gain any reputation. My editorial about that is there should be more passarounds for new makers especially.

There's nothing wrong with steels that have proven track records, even if we don't know exactly what's in there. There is no need to go whoring off after wunderstahls and unobtainium when a perfectly serviceable blade is working for you.

The end of the argument as to forged vs. stock removal, as Butch as pointed out, is in the heat treatment, but they didn't know that thirty years ago and some still won't let go of bad information. And it's the modern market that has driven the phenomena of requiring perfect knowledge of all the parts.

All this steel talk is getting me pumped. I'm thinking I should run out to the steel store and get some of that wunderstahl and grind me a chain.

Well I'm shot, that used up almost a whole days worth of irreverence.

I am not trying to start any arguments here, and I certainly won't say anything negative about Mr.Harner, but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

As for heat treating, yes, it is definitely the most important thing.

The main thing that I am going to have to wrap my head around is that staright razors are NOT hunting knives, camp knives, or pocket knives. They are staright razors.

I think some of you have misunderstood me about the steels, and you seem to be very sensitive about someone asking about a straight razors. I apologize for asking. As a new guy I didn't realize it was taboo to ask the question. I do not believe I ever stated that I had to have a razor with a certain kind of steel, I was just curious why most of them didn't list it.

I think it is a fair question to ask before spending $200-$800 per razor of my very hard earned money.

On another note, I did go ahead and buy a couple of razors last night, so I am getting rather excited awaiting their arrival.

Originally Posted by Tolly

On another note, I did go ahead and buy a couple of razors last night, so I am getting rather excited awaiting their arrival.

Don't say I didn't warn you about the RAD.

BTW, no one minds you asking any questions about anything .... OTOH, they will answer your questions with their point of view.

I like a forged blade myself just for the romance of the thing but in shaving and honing with blades made by either method I find I cannot tell the difference but I am certainly not an expert of qualified as a metallurgist.

Originally Posted by Tolly

I am not trying to start any arguments here, and I certainly won't say anything negative about Mr.Harner, but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

You are just wrong here and that needs to be made known for the benefit of other members and to stop misinformation.

Read this article written by Kevin Cashen- being into knives you should know who he is: The lowdown on forging

Also, see this post that I posted a while back in response to a similar argument: http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...tml#post292909

The link in that post (not working) is the link I posted above.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

You are just wrong here and that needs to be made known for the benefit of other members and to stop misinformation.

Read this article written by Kevin Cashen- being into knives you should know who he is: The lowdown on forging

Also, see this post that I posted a while back in response to a similar argument: http://straightrazorpalace.com/forge...tml#post292909

The link in that post (not working) is the link I posted above.

If starting with nice clean billets like what is provided by todays suppliers I can see the above article being correct. There is just something sexy about a forged blade though . It just seems like makers who forge put their heart and sole into the blade...Does that make sense to anyone else???

By the way Philadelph, I do know who Kevin is, but I had not read that article. Thanks for the link. I am not to hard headed to admit when I'm wrong.

Originally Posted by Tolly

It just seems like makers who forge put their heart and sole into the blade...Does that make sense to anyone else???

Definitely makes sense! It just doesn't mean that stock removal contains no heart and soul though! I for one put everything I have into the blades I make using stock removal. It just depends on the person.

I wanna start with a disclaimer in that I am not smith/forger/steelworker etc. but I have taken an Engineering class in materials (which delved into structure, stress, work hardening, forging, yield stress, etc etc etc boring boring boring) (actually I guess in this thread that stuff isn't boring, but anyways)- so I could follow the article/arguments.

I think I strongly agree with Mike (et al) on this one. Very very few people care what plastic cell phone is made of, they just want it to be durable. Very few people care what rubber compound is in the soles of their shoes, they just want them to be comfy. Very few people care what the composition is of the ink in their pen is, they just want it to write well.

We are those very few people (when it comes to razors). I believe this stems largely from the fact that straight razors (by and by) are not made anymore. They are more of a novelty. Back in teh day, you didn't have the quick and easy hyper-marketed Fusion. You had straight razors. And they either shaved, or didn't. Simply put, you bought the ones that shaved well and didn't give a who-hah about its steel- it didn't matter.

Maybe 50 years from now we won't have pens anymore. Laptops/phones/something else will have replaced them. But a small sect of us that value the art of hand writing may persist. And they will compare the mechanics of pens, the chemistry of ink, the physics of ball points/ink flow/etc. Right now I don't give a crap. I just know the cheap bics run out quick and don't write as well as my refillable Parkers. The flashy Pentel Client pencils on my desk are crappy and aren't nearly as good as my workhorse somewhat ugly Pentel 1000 drafting pencils or my Staedler workhorse essay-writer. I don't care what they're made of, or how they work (I do know how they work, but it makes no difference to me) the only thing I care about is how well it works. And I will buy what works- whether that costs more or less, or looks better or worse. (If its main function is flashy, then functionality may take a back door- see Pentel Client...)

For everyday use, usefulness counts.

As per Kevin's article: it's all forged stuff in the beginning.

Originally Posted by Tolly

...but saying that there is no difference between a forged blade and a blade made by stock removal is just ridiculous. Forging steel refines it's grain structure if done properly and the results are a stronger blade that will hold an edge longer. That is fact!

It's not ridiculous. Forging to refine grain structure is a much more limited process than can be had in a heat treatment process. I can change the grain structure without ever striking the material (thermal cycling), and I'm a smith. Forging is not an absolute requirement. Even as I say that, I can think of some things that are better when forged, where there are corners and stress risers that can't be avoided in the end product and would cause real problems when heat treated. Then, you want forging. It depends on the purpose of the tool as to which methods will produce the best tool. If it helps you buy a blade, no problem with me, it's just that what you believe ain't necessarily so.

I think some of you have misunderstood me about the steels, and you seem to be very sensitive about someone asking about a straight razors. I apologize for asking. As a new guy I didn't realize it was taboo to ask the question. I do not believe I ever stated that I had to have a razor with a certain kind of steel, I was just curious why most of them didn't list it.

I think it is a fair question to ask before spending $200-$800 per razor of my very hard earned money.

In the old days the recipe for steel was proprietary and a marketing tool. I was trying to imply that market forces have changed since then and the customers are more demanding about knowing what steels are used. Maybe the best thing to say is that they are better educated about what they want or what they think is best. I think it's still the responsibility of the makes to develop better educated customers.

And, it is a fair question to ask when that much money is on the line. In the 1950-60 period, there were fewer knife makers and guys like Rudy Ruana and Scagel and Randall had customers that bought a knife to use. So there was a lot of feedback about performance and that drove the market for custom blades. It's merely different in the knife world today than it was then, more talk than action, where I would say the reverse is true amongst razorheads.

While undoubtly it would be nice to know all data concerning steel type and heat treatment process details of every single razor, I think such info would benefit scientists doing some research the most, not regular razor users. The regular users are interested mostly how they shave (being properly sharpened), test these razors on their faces and provide feedback to others. The good product always defends itself. Imho, it is sufficent to know that feedback, your personal aestethic taste, condition of the item and of course funds left before making the decision about buying the razor. Personaly, I wouldn't spend big amount of $$$ on the razor basing solely on the fact the manufacturer marked their product with some wondersteel stamp or the stamp stating that it was handforged at the top of some mystic mountain.