Thread: "A good razor". What is it?

Originally Posted by SiRed8

While I have done couple razor reviews here, I certainly won't be posting them on the review section as much as I'd like to.

What I like a lot about our reviews is that they are mostly expert reviews. Ie written by members who can put products into perspective. In terms of "what is a good razor", it certainly takes a lot of experience, and a good number of razors to benchmark the product against. Add Glen's suggestion of edge consistency, and there won't be too many reviews. Which, in itself, need not be bad at all. Personally, I prefer to have fewer but more accurate (and objective) reviews.

Hmm... Very interesting thread.

What I consider a good review, gives me a fair idea how I would like the product being reviewed. That is a subjective quantification, and for that, the reviewer needs to share his subjective opinion. But: he needs to put his subjectivity into perspective. I don't think razor reviews are that much different than music reviews. It helps to know the reviewer and how his opinion correlates to yours. The more reviews he wrote, the more meaningful they all become.

On a more practical note: I don't see how you can talk about a razor's performance without talking how it was sharpened. But on the other hand: I'm not interested in owning a razor that only shaves amazingly when it was honed by a Sherpa on top of Mount Everest with a natural hone, plucked off the moon by Neil Armstrong.
A good razor should be perfectly "honeable" by someone with only experience in sharpening his own. In that light, Dubl'Ducks (I'm sticking with the example at hand) are excellent razors, while Double Arrow's are more of a decent mediocrity.

Bart.

I had broken the crystal out of a dress watch I had received as a gift. I took it to a watchmaker and wanted to know whether it was worth replacing the mineral crystal and asked him if it was a 'good' watch. He said,"Does it keep good time ? If it keeps good time it's a good watch."

So if it shaves well it is a good razor .... I will at the risk of drawing a poor comparison relate my experience with DE blades. One of the things that bewildered me early on in returning to DEs after a 40 year hiatus was the differing opinions of users of well known blades.

Honing is not an issue and craftsmanship is more or less going to be as close as it gets assuming a decent DE razor. Yet I actually saw people who didn't think that the Feather was a good blade. Others hated Merkurs while I found them to be fine. I hated Derbys in the beginning and was surprised when others praised them. Later on I found it was a technique issue and I came to like them and rate them with the Merkurs.

How much more difficult to get an across the board rating on a straight razor. Whatever it takes to hone it is whatever it takes. I am not pressed for time and I enjoy challenges. I rate it by the final results and that is of course subjective. So if it shaves me well it is a good razor. I will state that in a review or in a post and IMO it ought to be understood that as in all things with this sport YMMV.

Following up on my own post, I came across this defintion which I find useful for the subject at hand:

Review - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
A consumer review refers to a review written by the owner of a product or the user of a service who has sufficient experience to comment on reliability and whether or not the product or service delivers on its promises. An expert review usually refers to a review written by someone who has tested several peer products or services to identify which offers the best value for money or the best set of features.

Mind you, we do a lot more "reviews" than just those which make it into our review forums. We constantly comment on razors, or recommend them. And the funny thing is, whenever I asked the experts outside the forum what they think about a certain razor, the answer was "that is a good razor" (admittedly, I have not asked them about Zeepks, or Chroniks). I have rarely come across "you must buy this razor, as it outshaves almost every other razor on earth." Which, to me, means that most razors we deal with are in fact "good", ie they get the job done. And I find that I sometimes pick a razor which I know does not work as well for me as another, simply because it is pretty or otherwise interesting (like my ivory handled wedges - they really don't work as well as the large full hollows I have, but they are simply too appealing to not use them). Are they "good" razors? I cannot answer that question. For me, they are not, but somehow I still like them.

Regards,
Robin

Originally Posted by BeBerlin

After some consideration, I have come to the conclusion that what works for me (read: "This is a Hess 99, and having tried it extensively, and having benchmarked it against an Otto Deutsch Hans, I think it is a good razor") may not work for anyone else. Don't you think?

Regards,
Robin

To answer your question - Yes, I agree. What works for you may not work for me. Or to put it another way, a razor that provides a good / great shave for you may be next to unusable for me.

So the question seems to be, does opinion (in this case how a razor shaves) have value in a review? I believe it does as long as it is seperated out from the objective aspects (size, grind/flex, balance, etc..) and labeled for what it is... that reviewers opinion. As a reader, it is my responsibility to weigh the reviewers impression / opinion against the credibility and experience level of the reviewer.

On the other hand, a review that is almost entirely comprised of opinion / impression and fails to indicate the size, grind/flex, balance, etc., is next to worthless. It may be a fun read, but has no other value in determining it's suitability as a good shaver for me.

As an example, I know that at my experience level (read still developing technique) I need a razor that is stiff, and in the 5 to 6/8 range to get a good shave. Does that mean that all the other razors are poor shavers? Well for ME right now, yes they are.

BeBerlin, as usual, your post is thought provoking and its aim is to improve things here at SRP. Thank you.

I was going to bite my tongue and not comment here, but once again good sense escapes me.

All reviews are subjective if they evaluate how something performs for the person making the observations. If comment is made only on fit, finish, type of material(s), etc., then the review can't be faulted. The razor is made of x steel, hardened to xx Rockwell, ground to a x.x" concave radius, buffed to a x000 grit finish, and so forth: this describes the razor. When we get into anything that evaluates how it shaved for the person trying it, we get value judgements. These can be of significance if they are made by someone who has vast experience preparing that particular type of tool for testing and the same type of experience in testing that type of tool. Otherwise the reviews are just fun to read.

Further comment welcomed -

There are people out there that put up reviews when they first get something and the excitement has not worn off, or when they are disappointed in the product.

Yet there are sensible reviewers out there that try something for a while before reviewing it. When it comes to razor performance this may be important due to the fact that how the razor holds its edge overtime will maybe tell you more.

Unfortunately when it comes to the performance of the edge there are too many factors such as is the reviewer stropping properly, who honed it, in the razors life was the temper of the metal ever damaged. It would be impossible to look for any accuracy for the ability of the razors edge unless we deemed a few people as official reviewers and made everyone send their razors in for review so at least the person reviewing would be more consistent (but that is not realistic).

For me the important factors that would tell me if I felt the review was usefully for me is knowing what type of metal it is made of. If the steel is German or English then I know that the metal under usual circumstances should take and hold an edge.

As for the subjectivity of the review and the performance of the shave I would say if the reviewer simply listed how long they used the razor before reviewing and what other razor they prefer, I would get a very good idea if I would get the same results.

If a reviewer lists their top 5 preferred razors and I don't like their razors picks. Then I would know that a good review from them may be a blade I wouldn't prefer.

Something such as balance is pretty easy to say it is good or bad but as for quality of the razors construction. I would have to take the information with a grain of salt if the reviewer was not an active razor restorer. If Max or GSSix says a razor has good construction I would take it as fact, if I said it I would consider the information as advice from an untrained eye.

Perhaps the best way to make all the reviewer more useful there should be reviewers profiles. If all reviewers are required to fill out profiles of themselves that link to their reviews, the readers could get a better idea of where the reviewers opinions may line up with their own.

that is my 2 cents

A razor that takes a good edge, takes that edge readily, holds that edge as long as can be reasonably expected, and is comfortable both in your hand and on your face. The first part has to do with design, manufacture, and material. The next two are almost pure material (with a little manufacture and design influence). The last part is pure opinion, but is a huge part in my approval of a razor. I have a generic Sheffield extra hollow that shaves a dream, but the scales are such thin flimsy plastic that until I get it rescaled, I'd consider the razor as a whole below average. The Sheffield/Solingen/US rule from the noob FAQ (though I've had more bad US steel razors than good ones so far personally) helps cover the bases... but with such a wide field of razors that we can be confident share similar quality steel, we have to focus on and be more demanding of design, manufacture and comfort. Obviously the metal in all Sheffield or all Solingen razors is not identical; however since most of these manufacturers probably did not own their own foundries comparing the quality of the steel itself across manufacturers of the same era/steel is an impossible task. One Duck may have better steel than one Puma while another Puma may have better steel still. It would all be relative to batch quality which short of some damn significant assumptions you really can't connect to a manufacturer... and for a GOOD foundry, these differences will be undetectable to begin with.

I recall a few years back reading many product reviews for computer parts. The most memorable ones were for power supplies. Not too long ago, a typical user would get a PSU, hook it up to his machine and play video games and monitor the motherboard rail readings. Maybe try an overclock. Put some simplistic numbers together and slap an A+ sticker on the power supply. Then a few testers started buying professional electronics measuring and monitoring hardware, and the reviews started actually meaning something. Razor reviews are in the prior category. Now, when someone starts buying several identical razors, shaving filings off and inspecting them using lab equipment to find impurity levels, using a machanized grinder and polisher to put an edge on them and again using lab equipment to measure and discover problems with the edge, performing various stress, impact, etc tests on the blades and scales... then we're going to see much more meaningful reviews happening. At the moment though it's a matter of knowing how level-headed, experienced, and demanding the particular reviewer is of his razors, and just using good old common sense to take away from their reviews what you feel is appropriate. If a poster who brags about only ever using Gold Dollar razors and how they're the best thing since sliced bread reviews his latest GD and declares that it magicked the whiskers off his face I may be less inclined to immediately place an order for one than if a fellow who has a 100+ collection of Sheffields that he uses reviewed the same razor and stated that the shave is of similar quality to many of his razors with likened grinds and dimensions, and well worth the asking price.

One review is more glowing. One review is more worthwhile. It all comes down to the reader being as informed as possible and in the end deciding for him or herself.

For me its a mixture of things.

Obviously the build quality and finish are important. I dont want to pay good money for something thats badly finished after all..!

In terms of honing, I guess it would be a razor that will take a good sharp edge that yields a close comfortable shave and hold that edge for a reasonable time.

In terms of the actual shave quality, I have benchmarked all my straights against my DE that I was using before. I would expect any of my razors to give a comparable, or better, shave than my DE.

I was lucky with my first razor. I got a DOVO Black Star from Trumpers in London and they had put a fantastic edge on it, and the shaves were closer than my DE and did seem to last longer as well. This gave me a good benchmark for the other razors I subsequently bought.

But basically what I look for in a razor is:

- Good quality materials and a high standard of workmanship.
- The razor should take, and hold, a good edge. Time spent establishing that edge is not so much a factor as this will depend on the hardness of the steel and if there is any warpage etc... As long as it will take and hold an edge, its all good...!
- The shave should be at least up to the standard given by a DE blade.
- The shave should not irritate my skin, nor should it feel scratchy or pull on the hairs.

Basically if all those boxes are checked then I'm a happy bunny!

I'm gonna go with a mix of Glen and Jimmy here. As Jimmy quotes, "if it keeps good time, it's a good watch." If it shaves, its a good razor.

Then, with respect to Glen, I'm sure the honemeisters could put a good edge on a plain strip of O1 carbon steel if it was the right hardness. So as long as a razor is made of the right steel, it can be sharpened. However, the ease with which it is sharpened is a whole new story. I have a few Solingen blades in NOS/near NOS condition and touching them up is easy as spit. On the other hand, I have one that gives a great shave but I can't put an edge on it- I had to send it out.

To put the two together, a good razor is one that is consistently easy to hone, maintain, and touch up when necessary. IMHO, we shouldn't even have a "how it shaves" consideration because A BAD WORKMAN BLAMES HIS TOOLS.

Consider this: I can take a DD wonderedge and shave with the blade perpendicular to my skin. This will not only damage the edge but give me a terrible shave with razor burn. Or, I could blunt it with bad honing/stropping, resulting in a terrible shave. Or, I could be over confident in my honing ability and not actually put a good edge on it (vs. an edge from a honemeister). These are technique issues that may go unnoticed and result in something being called a bad razor.

I think reviews should be directed at reviewing, not rating- commenting on:
craftsmanship (how well is it worked? even grind? fit and finish?)
steel quality (edge holding, ease of honing, resistance to corrosion- yes I know stainless is stainless and otherwise not, but different steels corrode faster than others)
extras (scales, covered tang, hammered tang, etc)

Value and Goodness of shave should both be left out I think because they are HIGHLY subjective. Value, see Hart Razor. Goodness, see DD examples.