Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

Going back to the TI 5/8 damascus - it may have changed over the years. I have one of the very first, sold when they first came out and years before they had polished scales. The pattern in the steel is like no other damascus I have (which I am certain are all pattern welded), and it exhibits a ladder pattern that has evidently been created by the cutting or chisel-forging of grooves across the blade mentioned in the article by J.D. Verhoeven, A.H. Pendray, and W.E. Dauksch linked here. Let me draw attention to this section of the article:



If it's too small to read try the link above.
Now look at this blade, which clearly has crudely made defects in the spine which align with the ladder pattern:



I can't believe it's just a coincidence that they line up like that! Naturally, I'm open to any other explanations you can think of. Here are a couple of 60x closeups of the patterns in the spine and blade:





Folded or crystallised carbides? Who knows, but the razor has stayed sharp without re-honing for years! Admittedly it did cause me some trouble getting it that way... Now when I said the razor may have changed, compare it to the photos in this thread at another place. Not the same razor at all.

Chris

Originally Posted by drmoss_ca

Going back to the TI 5/8 damascus - ...The pattern in the steel is like no other damascus I have (which I am certain are all pattern welded), and it exhibits a ladder pattern that has evidently been created by the cutting or chisel-forging of grooves across the blade...
...
Folded or crystallised carbides? Who knows, but the razor has stayed sharp without re-honing for years! Admittedly it did cause me some trouble getting it that way... Now when I said the razor may have changed, compare it to the photos ... at another place. Not the same razor at all.

Chris

Hmm. Chris, the photos you posted are ladder pattern welded steels. A very fine pattern, 600 layers or higher, but modern pattern welded steel nonetheless. The old TI blade pictured is not wootz. Undoubtedly it's good steel or combination of, since it works well for you.

The B&B thread razor you cited shows a twisted pattern variation. Technically the same razor made by TI but using different patterned steels. More than likely I would guess because that's what they had on the shelf at the time, or they ran out of the old stock or wanted to sell something different.

A ladder or twist or other pattern does not define wootz, that is a chemistry issue and means of manufacture, as in crucible smelting. But, you can deform the wootz dendritic pattern by using the same techniques to deform the patterns on modern pattern welded steels. You can even use those techniques on alloy banded monosteels (overcooked segregated carbides in a Non pattern welded steel) and show a pattern.

I hope I'm understanding the point you're trying to make and my response is directed at that.

I think that what drmoss ca actually has is a rare and fabled Chronik, only one where the surface of the blade has been antiqued with and etched upon, clearly with the intent to disguise its real identity and composition. This would be not unlike the Lone Ranger's mask, which continues to hide his identity from me to this day.

Mike,
I hadn't been aware that modern pattern-welders use the grooving technique to dictate the surface pattern - ladder, rose etc. That puts me back to square one.

Bruce,
I have tried three Chroniks. This ain't no Chronik!

Chris

There are two main methods to achieve the pattern. For a very basic image, think of plywood made up of many layers. You only see the outer wood grain layer until you cut down into the board at an angle. Looking down from on top, now you see the layers exposed to view.

For a ladder pattern, as an example, a groove is incised or abraded across the flat billet leaving a valley. Then the billet is forged flat and surface ground to expose the stuff inside. This is the most common method. The second way is to use dies in a power hammer or press to forge the deformity into the billet, then grind away the raised areas between the pattern in the dies. Either way material is lost to removal.

For a pool or eye pattern, a drill bit cuts an angled dimple leaving a pattern of circular rings in the layers.

It starts to get busy real quick when multiple patterns are overlaid, or forging tools used to create other minor pattern deformations.

I did a little further checking and found some forgotten correspondence I had with TI at the time: it confirms that they are pattern-welded (which you knew all along!)

This is to straighten out the manufacture process of the Damascus razors of Thiers-Issard here in France. We hand forge two very high quality and VERY SIMILAR ROCKWELL metals (this is very important), sandwiching them together making the complex damascus design. It is tempting to use not similar rockwell metals for the two different base materials as this gives a nice design but this will not give a good razor! What we use are some very excellent carbon steel that hardens each to a very similar 60-62 rockwell, we hand forge these two into a razor form with the basic form that closely resembles what the razor will eventually be. This is very important also, as some other attempts to do damascus razors have been done with a knife form without resembling really a real razor. Our damascus razors are formed as real razors and then we grind them down (and that is not at all a piece of cake!!) to the thinness required for a real finished razor, obeying to the requirements of a normal razor! Now at this stage we protect the edge of the razor with a small varnish layer (this is what you think of as a different piece of metal right at the edge but it is not!) We do this so during the process of acid bathing which shows or "reveals" the wonderful damascus design on the razors, the edge is not "revealed". We do this because after long experimentation, we have come to the conclusion that it is better to have an edge that is formed of the two layers of steel mixed "croissant-like" in the damascus forging process, but without the "breaking" of the damascus revealing process so as not to weaken the edge. In this way we get an absolutely beautiful razor with all the strength and wonderful rockwell, (just ask those who have sharpened and used)of a fine edge. And of course there will be discussion in terms of metallurgical terms as to whether or not the hand beating of the layers of steel during the folding process further improves the quality of the steel. So know you know basically how our razors are made.

Some other points:

1. If we mixed layers of different rockwell materials, say 55 and 60
rockwell layers, than we would get beautiful decorations but the edge
would not be good as we would get some softer and some harder regions
on the cutting edge. The secret of our razors (and which makes them
very difficult to work) is the extreme hardness and similar hardness
of each layer worked together.

2. We only use carbon steel never stainless (as do some other
companies who have tried to make damascus razors.) Just as we do for
our normal razors, we just don't feel that stainless steel works for
a razor. Of course it tends not to rust but it just does NOT CUT IT!
That is all we feel she wrote. It is our opinion, but also those of
our customers, who plebiscite our quality and material choice.

3. Also, please note that our damascus razors are hand-forged not
merely made out of laser-cut industrial damascus or made out of
industrial damascus which has been banged a few times or "lengthened"
under a forging hammer and called thus "hand-crafted". Our damascus
is truly made in very small number and carefully worked each piece.
We never have used industrial damascus of any kind. It means that
the product is not cheap but it also guarantees an excellent quality
and that each piece will be individually beautiful.

I do hope that the above improves the understanding of our products.

Please note however that we are always seeking to improve our
products and are constantly experimenting to improve these razors for
you our customers.
David Loft for Thiers-Issard **** Elephant

But still a very good razor - I shaved with it again this morning and found it smooth and comfortable.

Chris

I would say all in all that you are lucky with yours Chris. I owned one of these and have honed a bunch for other people. The feel of the razors on the stone can vary from very hard to softer. Mine never stopped micro-chipping out and ended up back at TI in exchange for other razors. the ones that did not micro chip out were indeed nice shavers, but were always tricky to hone. Your query was interesting as these have always been pattern weld and I was not aware that anyone was selling them as Wootz. Yours is a really nice looking razor as well.

Mike, thank you for your posts. I learn something every time I read one of your posts and really look forward to seeing them.

Lynn

Chris, that personal communique with TI is very informative. It's a very good thing when the company is willing to explain some of the features of their product and not hide behind proprietary rights to protect some secret, that is not really any secret to those with an eye to see. I would be willing to confirm these are small batch, hand forged blades simply on the evidence of the pattern seen. Without knowing the exact steel mixtures or the heat treatment, some of this is discussion left to speculation.

If the steels changed from time to time, based on availability, or a different smith who had a batch ready for sale at the time (other things I don't know but are the province of the marketplace), then the possibility of performance changes at the level that Lynn expresses his concerns can be very real. Just a small change in heat treatment that increases the hardness by 0.5 points makes a satisfying blade to one person and one that is difficult to hone for another.

But, I am refreshed by TI's comments, and forgiving of marketing hype as well. They are in the business of selling razors...and the labelling practices of strange or mystical properties occurred in the razor steel business long before the knife makers, and the metallurgists, came along to push the envelope of better information. It's a rich time to know things.

I'm feeling inspired to take down the 8/8 damascus TI (one of the original five made so many years ago) and see if I have learnt enough over the years to get it to shave nicely. It's been a display queen for too long...

Chris

Originally Posted by drmoss_ca

I'm feeling inspired to take down the 8/8 damascus TI (one of the original five made so many years ago) and see if I have learnt enough over the years to get it to shave nicely. It's been a display queen for too long...

I've got one of those original five, and it's a handful to hone. I wound up honing it on the 30k Shapton and the Nakayama and got it to shave pretty well, but it's still not up to the standards of their later damascus razors. Beautiful razor, though.

Also, in re the discussions of Tamahagane earlier in this thread, I've recently come into the possession of a Japanese-made western-style tamahagane razor (has the characters for tamahagane on the shank) and am quite curious to see how it compares with the Livi Takedas, which I've always thought to be tamahagane but this thread has made me question that belief.