Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 91
Like Tree12Likes

Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

Hybrid View

Toplin Why are Damascus steel razors... 01-01-2010, 07:35 AM
Buddel There are some reasons. A... 01-01-2010, 01:17 PM
mparker762 Because people are willing to... 01-01-2010, 03:51 PM
Philadelph That's actually a very poor,... 01-01-2010, 07:41 PM
mparker762 On the contrary, sir. Yours... 01-01-2010, 08:36 PM
Toplin thank you for taking the time... 01-01-2010, 04:16 PM
Mike Blue Buddel's summary is a good... 01-01-2010, 05:16 PM
LeeringCorpse Damascus blades take much... 01-01-2010, 05:27 PM
Mike Blue And after all that, we try to... 01-01-2010, 05:53 PM
  1. #1
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    71
    Thanked: 7

    Default Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

    Thank you.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Buddel's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    523
    Thanked: 203

    Default

    There are some reasons. A blank for a pattern welted steel razor is much more expensive than a normal carbon steel blank. Here you can see at Dovo how a normal blank is made: YouTube - Dovo wmv


    Such a blank will not cost more than some Euros. A damascus blank is only made for a few razors mostly by hand. If the damascus steel is self made by the blacksmith this process will take some hours. You have also every time the possibility, that the several layers in the steel will reopen and you made only grab. After that you have to forge the steel by hand in the shape. So you have to put much more time in a Damascus razor and you have a greater risk to destroy something in this process.
    On a good forged Damascus blank you can see, that the grain of the steel on the shank is more dense than at the blade itself. That is the sign of a forged shank.
    http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...buddel14_1.jpg
    If the grain at the whole razor is equal this is a sign for a stock removal made razor.

    And not a least the Damascus steel made razors are more rare then the others. Also it is a point of the marketing.

  • The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Buddel For This Useful Post:

    bonitomio (10-28-2011), JimmyHAD (01-01-2010), M Martinez (01-03-2010)

  • #3
    Electric Razor Aficionado
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,396
    Thanked: 346

    Default

    Because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them.

  • #4
    The Razor Whisperer Philadelph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,197
    Thanked: 474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mparker762 View Post
    Because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them.
    That's actually a very poor, misinformed answer and I hope no member's take it as fact.

    The truth is, as others have explained, that a LOT more goes into making the STEEL in itself than using a non-patterned steel. I have personally MADE damascus from scratch, and after allllll the hours, sweat, mistakes, and effort that went in it didn't even look that good. Once you have stood in front of the forge with the billet red-hot and then hammered and twisted the steel time after time (I'm leaving out a lot of steps here) you will TRULY understand why damascus is expensive. After I made those 2 billets (taught by someone who makes it regularly) I decided that I'd never want to make my own again rather than paying someone else to make it for me. It's really an intensive process that is sadly dismissed too often by those who have no idea.
    cudarunner likes this.

  • The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Philadelph For This Useful Post:

    bonitomio (10-28-2011), cudarunner (10-29-2011)

  • #5
    Electric Razor Aficionado
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Posts
    3,396
    Thanked: 346

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Philadelph View Post
    That's actually a very poor, misinformed answer and I hope no member's take it as fact.

    The truth is, as others have explained, that a LOT more goes into making the STEEL in itself than using a non-patterned steel. I have personally MADE damascus from scratch, and after allllll the hours, sweat, mistakes, and effort that went in it didn't even look that good. Once you have stood in front of the forge with the billet red-hot and then hammered and twisted the steel time after time (I'm leaving out a lot of steps here) you will TRULY understand why damascus is expensive. After I made those 2 billets (taught by someone who makes it regularly) I decided that I'd never want to make my own again rather than paying someone else to make it for me. It's really an intensive process that is sadly dismissed too often by those who have no idea.

    On the contrary, sir. Yours is a common economic misconception. All that you say is well and good, but misses the fundamental microeconomic point. The effort that the maker puts into the product - the labor, the skill, the quality of the materials - none of this directly determines its value in the marketplace. Only the customer can do that. If the seller can convince a potential customer to accept his own valuation of the razor's worth, then so much the better for him. Possibly the potential customer will base his valuation on other aspects entirely, such as the fact that it was made in a particular country (USA! USA! USA!), and assign an extra value that the seller does not consider (or the reverse, which was a point of contention about the Hart razor). But possibly the potential customer will value such things differently than the seller does, in which case the seller must adjust his own valuation to match. Possibly uncomfortably lower, possibly gloriously higher. But there is nonetheless only a very imperfect match between the labor, skill, and material that goes into a product, and the value attached to that product. We see this all the time with guys griping about the cost of razors on ebay, or the cost of gillette razors, or the cost of Penhaligons shaving soap. While this may be an uncomfortable thing for a proud craftsman to think about, it is nonetheless a fact. It is possible that the two cannot agree on a common valuation, and the craftsman gets to admire his work sitting on his mantlepiece, and comfort himself that it is at least being appreciated properly by someone who truly understands it. But that doesn't pay the bills, nor does it mean that his valuation is the "correct" one, merely that he values his pride more than paying the bills.

    To the extent that the damascus makers have succeeded in convincing their customers to value the labor and skill involved, they can charge a premium for their razors that is not justified by the actual shaving qualities. But there are other reasons to value damascus highly (aesthetics), as well as reasons to devalue it (layer transitions at the edge, higher maintenance to preserve those aesthetics, etc) which have nothing to do with skill or labor, and I would guess that few of the people on this forum who have ponied up for a damascus razor have the sort of appreciation for what goes into making it that you do, which makes yours an inadequate description for what establishes the value of damascus razors.

    Quote Originally Posted by red96ta View Post
    Filis are expensive not because they contain some magical quality, it's just because people will pay that much for them. Supply and demand.
    Yep. The value of a Fili has very little to do with the cost to produce them, nor does the value of a dubl duck, nor the value of a Hart, or TI, or Dovo, or Livi. They are worth what they are, because people for a variety of reasons are willing to pay it. Rarity, coolness, investment potential, SRAD, whatever. But very little of it has anything to do with whatever went into the manufacture of those razors.
    Last edited by mparker762; 01-01-2010 at 08:55 PM.
    DarthLord likes this.

  • #6
    The Razor Whisperer Philadelph's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Rhode Island
    Posts
    2,197
    Thanked: 474

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mparker762 View Post
    On the contrary, sir. Yours is a common economic misconception. All that you say is well and good, but misses the fundamental microeconomic point. The effort that the maker puts into the product - the labor, the skill, the quality of the materials - none of this directly determines its value in the marketplace...

    But there is nonetheless only a very imperfect match between the labor, skill, and material that goes into a product, and the value attached to that product...

    While this may be an uncomfortable thing for a proud craftsman to think about, it is nonetheless a fact. It is possible that the two cannot agree on a common valuation, and the craftsman gets to admire his work sitting on his mantlepiece, and comfort himself that it is at least being appreciated properly by someone who truly understands it. But that doesn't pay the bills, nor does it mean that his valuation is the "correct" one, merely that he values his pride more than paying the bills.
    You obviously have your opinion and I have mine, but it IS a fact that the intensive labor that goes into making damascus also creates the cost. I understand that a buyer determines cost, but that is not THE reason damascus razors are expensive. In the custom knife world, whether the value is justified or not (which still lies in the mind of the buyer) cost DOES move in accordance with labor although there is no set scale as to what prices should be. You can argue all day that the buyer determines the cost but the labor issue is still there. If damascus didn't sell for high prices, it wouldn't be made. The labor wouldn't equal the return. We could argue the semantics of 'economics' or 'value' all day and still go in circles.
    Last edited by Philadelph; 01-01-2010 at 09:34 PM.

  • #7
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    71
    Thanked: 7

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Buddel View Post
    There are some reasons. A blank for a pattern welted steel razor is much more expensive than a normal carbon steel blank. Here you can see at Dovo how a normal blank is made: YouTube - Dovo wmv


    Such a blank will not cost more than some Euros. A damascus blank is only made for a few razors mostly by hand. If the damascus steel is self made by the blacksmith this process will take some hours. You have also every time the possibility, that the several layers in the steel will reopen and you made only grab. After that you have to forge the steel by hand in the shape. So you have to put much more time in a Damascus razor and you have a greater risk to destroy something in this process.
    On a good forged Damascus blank you can see, that the grain of the steel on the shank is more dense than at the blade itself. That is the sign of a forged shank.
    http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...buddel14_1.jpg
    If the grain at the whole razor is equal this is a sign for a stock removal made razor.

    And not a least the Damascus steel made razors are more rare then the others. Also it is a point of the marketing.
    thank you for taking the time with a short answer to my question.

  • #8
    "My words are of iron..."
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,898
    Thanked: 995

    Default

    Buddel's summary is a good one. There are so many things that can go wrong making it, that you are paying for the smith's education (and mistakes). When it goes right, it is beautiful.
    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power.” R.G.Ingersoll

  • #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Posts
    17
    Thanked: 4

    Default

    Damascus blades take much more time and fuel to make then a standard billet and are a higher degree of difficulty so only blade smiths of good experience are best suited to making them.

    The process for making on is to take 2 pieces of metal, one a high carbon and the other one will have a high nickle content or something similar to give the best contrast when the blade is submerged in the etching acid. Then to stack the two pieces alternating them and start to heat them up. The stack of metal will be heated to a semi molten state so when they are hammered they will fuse together. Once it has been fully fused the metal will then be drawn out and folded. This process of forge welding, drawing out and folding will be done until the desired number of layers is reached. In some cases the number of layers can be in the 100,000 or more range, then there are some that may only require 100 or so layers.

    Also there are some patterns that will be ruined if they are ground to much, so on some instances the blade will need to be forged most of the way before one can start to grind it so the pattern isn't destroyed.

    A lot of work, a lot of fuel and a lot of skill drive up the price.

  • The Following User Says Thank You to LeeringCorpse For This Useful Post:

    bonitomio (10-28-2011)

  • #10
    "My words are of iron..."
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    1,898
    Thanked: 995

    Default

    And after all that, we try to do silly things, like play with the patterns. And hope they turn out looking good in the end.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    “Nothing discloses real character like the use of power. Most people can bear adversity. But if you wish to know what a man really is, give him power.” R.G.Ingersoll

  • Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

    Posting Permissions

    • You may not post new threads
    • You may not post replies
    • You may not post attachments
    • You may not edit your posts
    •