Thread: Why are Damascus steel razors so expensive?

Because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them.

That's actually a very poor, misinformed answer and I hope no member's take it as fact.

The truth is, as others have explained, that a LOT more goes into making the STEEL in itself than using a non-patterned steel. I have personally MADE damascus from scratch, and after allllll the hours, sweat, mistakes, and effort that went in it didn't even look that good. Once you have stood in front of the forge with the billet red-hot and then hammered and twisted the steel time after time (I'm leaving out a lot of steps here) you will TRULY understand why damascus is expensive. After I made those 2 billets (taught by someone who makes it regularly) I decided that I'd never want to make my own again rather than paying someone else to make it for me. It's really an intensive process that is sadly dismissed too often by those who have no idea.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

That's actually a very poor, misinformed answer and I hope no member's take it as fact.

The truth is, as others have explained, that a LOT more goes into making the STEEL in itself than using a non-patterned steel. I have personally MADE damascus from scratch, and after allllll the hours, sweat, mistakes, and effort that went in it didn't even look that good. Once you have stood in front of the forge with the billet red-hot and then hammered and twisted the steel time after time (I'm leaving out a lot of steps here) you will TRULY understand why damascus is expensive. After I made those 2 billets (taught by someone who makes it regularly) I decided that I'd never want to make my own again rather than paying someone else to make it for me. It's really an intensive process that is sadly dismissed too often by those who have no idea.

On the contrary, sir. Yours is a common economic misconception. All that you say is well and good, but misses the fundamental microeconomic point. The effort that the maker puts into the product - the labor, the skill, the quality of the materials - none of this directly determines its value in the marketplace. Only the customer can do that. If the seller can convince a potential customer to accept his own valuation of the razor's worth, then so much the better for him. Possibly the potential customer will base his valuation on other aspects entirely, such as the fact that it was made in a particular country (USA! USA! USA!), and assign an extra value that the seller does not consider (or the reverse, which was a point of contention about the Hart razor). But possibly the potential customer will value such things differently than the seller does, in which case the seller must adjust his own valuation to match. Possibly uncomfortably lower, possibly gloriously higher. But there is nonetheless only a very imperfect match between the labor, skill, and material that goes into a product, and the value attached to that product. We see this all the time with guys griping about the cost of razors on ebay, or the cost of gillette razors, or the cost of Penhaligons shaving soap. While this may be an uncomfortable thing for a proud craftsman to think about, it is nonetheless a fact. It is possible that the two cannot agree on a common valuation, and the craftsman gets to admire his work sitting on his mantlepiece, and comfort himself that it is at least being appreciated properly by someone who truly understands it. But that doesn't pay the bills, nor does it mean that his valuation is the "correct" one, merely that he values his pride more than paying the bills.

To the extent that the damascus makers have succeeded in convincing their customers to value the labor and skill involved, they can charge a premium for their razors that is not justified by the actual shaving qualities. But there are other reasons to value damascus highly (aesthetics), as well as reasons to devalue it (layer transitions at the edge, higher maintenance to preserve those aesthetics, etc) which have nothing to do with skill or labor, and I would guess that few of the people on this forum who have ponied up for a damascus razor have the sort of appreciation for what goes into making it that you do, which makes yours an inadequate description for what establishes the value of damascus razors.

Originally Posted by red96ta

Filis are expensive not because they contain some magical quality, it's just because people will pay that much for them. Supply and demand.

Yep. The value of a Fili has very little to do with the cost to produce them, nor does the value of a dubl duck, nor the value of a Hart, or TI, or Dovo, or Livi. They are worth what they are, because people for a variety of reasons are willing to pay it. Rarity, coolness, investment potential, SRAD, whatever. But very little of it has anything to do with whatever went into the manufacture of those razors.

Originally Posted by mparker762

On the contrary, sir. Yours is a common economic misconception. All that you say is well and good, but misses the fundamental microeconomic point. The effort that the maker puts into the product - the labor, the skill, the quality of the materials - none of this directly determines its value in the marketplace...

But there is nonetheless only a very imperfect match between the labor, skill, and material that goes into a product, and the value attached to that product...

While this may be an uncomfortable thing for a proud craftsman to think about, it is nonetheless a fact. It is possible that the two cannot agree on a common valuation, and the craftsman gets to admire his work sitting on his mantlepiece, and comfort himself that it is at least being appreciated properly by someone who truly understands it. But that doesn't pay the bills, nor does it mean that his valuation is the "correct" one, merely that he values his pride more than paying the bills.

You obviously have your opinion and I have mine, but it IS a fact that the intensive labor that goes into making damascus also creates the cost. I understand that a buyer determines cost, but that is not THE reason damascus razors are expensive. In the custom knife world, whether the value is justified or not (which still lies in the mind of the buyer) cost DOES move in accordance with labor although there is no set scale as to what prices should be. You can argue all day that the buyer determines the cost but the labor issue is still there. If damascus didn't sell for high prices, it wouldn't be made. The labor wouldn't equal the return. We could argue the semantics of 'economics' or 'value' all day and still go in circles.

Originally Posted by Philadelph

If damascus didn't sell for high prices, it wouldn't be made. The labor wouldn't equal the return.

Or somebody would figure out a more cost-effective way to make it, or it would be valued the same way art is valued, purely on its aesthetic qualities with no real consideration for the labor involved; I suspect that it is already valued as art btw, and the reason labor is such an imperfect proxy for value is because labor is really a rough proxy for the artistic quality of the resulting steel, and because we have such a poor knowledge of the labor that goes into a razor - Zowada doesn't put the workbill next to the price tag on his razors on the Classic Shaving website; we're left to infer the labor and material inputs from the asking price, which is the complete reverse of your argument. What we do have pretty good knowledge about is the aesthetics of the razor - Classic Shaving may skip the workbills but they make sure to put up nice large photos of the razors, which implies that Classic believes that purchasing decisions are being made based on artistic considerations, *not* labor calculations, not even approximately based on labor calculations, though it is possible that Classic Shaving is wrong about this, and they could charge more for the razors if their customers really knew what it took to make that $2100 Zowada damascus razor versus that $700 TI damascus razor.

Edit: split into two sentences.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Zowada doesn't put the workbill next to the price tag on his razors on the Classic Shaving website; we're left to infer the labor and material inputs from the asking price, which is the complete reverse of your argument. What we do have pretty good knowledge about is the aesthetics of the razor - Classic Shaving may skip the workbills but they make sure to put up nice large photos of the razors, which implies that Classic believes that purchasing decisions are being made based on artistic considerations, *not* labor calculations, not even approximately based on labor calculations, though it is possible that Classic Shaving is wrong about this, and they could charge more for the razors if their customers really knew what it took to make that $2100 Zowada damascus razor versus that $700 TI damascus razor.

I'm almost positive that Classic Shaving doesn't set the prices for Zowada razors... Tim Zowada does. That's because he knows what went into them AS WELL AS what he can get out. Also, the price difference between a Zowada custom and a TI damascus is like comparing an original Van Gogh to a Thomas Kinkade lithograph... it has a LOT to do with the labor involved. I'm not saying that labor is the only determining factor or that art, aesthetics, and consumer demand play no part, but saying "because people are willing to pay a lot of money for them" as a be-all end-all answer is pretty ignorant. I didn't set out to give a breakdown as to the merits and drawbacks of damascus- that can't be argued to an end either.

Originally Posted by mparker762

Or somebody would figure out a more cost-effective way to make it, or it would be valued the same way art is valued, purely on its aesthetic qualities with no real consideration for the labor involved; I suspect that it is already valued as art btw, and the reason labor is such an imperfect proxy for value is because labor is really a rough proxy for the artistic quality of the resulting steel, and because we have such a poor knowledge of the labor that goes into a razor - Zowada doesn't put the workbill next to the price tag on his razors on the Classic Shaving website; we're left to infer the labor and material inputs from the asking price, which is the complete reverse of your argument. What we do have pretty good knowledge about is the aesthetics of the razor - Classic Shaving may skip the workbills but they make sure to put up nice large photos of the razors, which implies that Classic believes that purchasing decisions are being made based on artistic considerations, *not* labor calculations, not even approximately based on labor calculations, though it is possible that Classic Shaving is wrong about this, and they could charge more for the razors if their customers really knew what it took to make that $2100 Zowada damascus razor versus that $700 TI damascus razor.

Edit: split into two sentences.

Actually, what you are saying is only ONE of the theories of price, and cannot be regarded as facts. The one that stresses demand is the "neo-classic" view, which is mostly endorsed by right-wing. The second one is more close to the "added-value" theory of Marx, which is mostly supported by left. And, I think none of the theories works well in the case of collectable items, as there exists no equilibrium price even for a particular item.

Originally Posted by Buddel

There are some reasons. A blank for a pattern welted steel razor is much more expensive than a normal carbon steel blank. Here you can see at Dovo how a normal blank is made: YouTube - Dovo wmv

Such a blank will not cost more than some Euros. A damascus blank is only made for a few razors mostly by hand. If the damascus steel is self made by the blacksmith this process will take some hours. You have also every time the possibility, that the several layers in the steel will reopen and you made only grab. After that you have to forge the steel by hand in the shape. So you have to put much more time in a Damascus razor and you have a greater risk to destroy something in this process.
On a good forged Damascus blank you can see, that the grain of the steel on the shank is more dense than at the blade itself. That is the sign of a forged shank.
http://straightrazorpalace.com/attac...buddel14_1.jpg
If the grain at the whole razor is equal this is a sign for a stock removal made razor.

And not a least the Damascus steel made razors are more rare then the others. Also it is a point of the marketing.