Thread: Market Forces and Razor Prices

There was a movie that I've not seen with the title,"That Obscure Object Of Desire." I loved that title because within it was the story of my life. If it ain't one thing it's another. I read a book about 25 years ago called,"Collecting, An Unruly Passion." The author postulated that people who became collectors , to the extent that it made their lives unmanageable, had not had nurturing parents in infancy.

When a baby cries and the mother/father doesn't respond with affection the baby reaches for a blanket, teddy bear or whatever is available. An inanimate object for comfort when no loving hand is forthcoming. The individual grows up with the learned behavior of looking for things to depend on rather than people. Since things can never fill that void the poor fellow becomes like Sisyphus with his rock. Pretty deep and I don't know if there is anything to it but thought I would throw it out there.

from the first post i was hoping someone would hijack this thread and list all the current razor producers. maybe i can start with what i know, or believe to be so:

dovo, revisor, and ti. there must be more than this however. i hear mixed reviews about the double arrows out of china.

not to mention the individual artisans making more limited runs.

Boker and Henkels are at it again, as well. Then there is Wacker (dunno if he uses new blanks or only old ones), Livi (new grinds of old blanks and also customs), and Hart (cottage industry style). And of course all the guys making customs.

Maybe there are more in production that I'm forgetting about.

Old hat here. I've seen this kind of thing happen before with other things.

When I was actively collecting minerals back in the 70s you could buy a box of great specimens for a song and then investors got involved and the quality declined and the prices went through the roof.

The same with pocket-watches. You could buy great specimens for nothing. Average condition you couldn't give them away and then the demand went up and you can't touch great condition items and junk is going for big prices.

Straights are no different. There are plenty being hoarded by people but what's available to the market especially the in demand ones will command high prices. However unlike minerals and pocket-watches if you buy unknown names you can get plenty of bargains.

Personally I have over 100 razors and I have all the in demand ones so I don't worry about it so much so... Har Har

Oh except for that Bresnick Napoleon, now where is that?

This is an interesting thread. I did not realize that the prices I am seeing would have been considered unreasonably high just a couple years ago. Being a new guy I can name another market force at work here: ignorance.

Now I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds, I mean it more like unknowingness. When I first started looking at straight razors on Ebay I had not done much research on the subject so I was ignorant to the fact that there were so many brands of good shaving vintage razors. I saw on the bay that dubl ducks were going for big bucks compared to a lot of other razors. To my mind, not knowing any better, this meant that dubl ducks must be better than all those other razors. For a period of time dubl duck razors was all I was searching for. I bid on a few but didn't win any since they always went for more than I really wanted to pay for a razor. Eventually I began looking at lower priced razors and googled lots of different brands. A lot (ok, most) of the information I gained through my searches came from this forum. And what did I find: many of the brands going for peanuts (compared to the ducks) were thought of as great shavers by many people. After some research I realized that I would probably get just as good of a shave from just about any Solingen or Sheffield razor (or even some of the Americans). So I got a few from both places (still need a couple Americans) for what I would have probably paid for one duck. I am certain that there are others new to this hobby that get into that same mindset that since brand x costs more than brand y it has to be better.

Not that there is anything wrong with buying a "golden" razor, if my pockets were a little deeper I would probably own one or three. I am just happy I learned that I could start a collection of promising razors for the price of one dubl duck.

One other thing, is there any reason the steals of today can't turn into to coveted razors of tomorrow? Only time will tell I suppose.

Originally Posted by HNSB

No. You're on the right track, but there are economic models that explain this...
See the picture below: P is price, Q is quantity of product. S is supply, D1 is original demand, D2 is what happens when a product gets hyped... When a brand gets talked up here the demand curve shifts to the right, but the supply curve doesn't move. Supply shows how many people are willing to sell a given product at various prices. Demand shows how many people are willing to buy products at various prices. When we talk about "supply and demand" usually we are discussing a shift in one of those curves. When a razor gets talked up, more people want to buy it. Various people will fall into different price ranges, but bottom line the curve shifts to the right because in general people want it more than they did before. Notice where the curves intersect... That is market (equilibrium) price. When the demand curve goes right, market price goes up. The same is true if the supply curve shifts left. (less products available at all prices makes the market price go up)

I will explain this in more detail later tonight, but for right now I have to go back to work.

I like it - thanks.

Originally Posted by ACSchank

This is an interesting thread. I did not realize that the prices I am seeing would have been considered unreasonably high just a couple years ago. Being a new guy I can name another market force at work here: ignorance.

Now I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds, I mean it more like unknowingness. When I first started looking at straight razors on Ebay I had not done much research on the subject so I was ignorant to the fact that there were so many brands of good shaving vintage razors. I saw on the bay that dubl ducks were going for big bucks compared to a lot of other razors. To my mind, not knowing any better, this meant that dubl ducks must be better than all those other razors. For a period of time dubl duck razors was all I was searching for. I bid on a few but didn't win any since they always went for more than I really wanted to pay for a razor. Eventually I began looking at lower priced razors and googled lots of different brands. A lot (ok, most) of the information I gained through my searches came from this forum. And what did I find: many of the brands going for peanuts (compared to the ducks) were thought of as great shavers by many people. After some research I realized that I would probably get just as good of a shave from just about any Solingen or Sheffield razor (or even some of the Americans). So I got a few from both places (still need a couple Americans) for what I would have probably paid for one duck. I am certain that there are others new to this hobby that get into that same mindset that since brand x costs more than brand y it has to be better.

Not that there is anything wrong with buying a "golden" razor, if my pockets were a little deeper I would probably own one or three. I am just happy I learned that I could start a collection of promising razors for the price of one dubl duck.

One other thing, is there any reason the steals of today can't turn into to coveted razors of tomorrow? Only time will tell I suppose.

That is one of my main points to the original post. There are mighty fine new razors out there and a some point they will be vintage.

I was lucky to obtain a Fili DT 12, 13 and 14 for about $275 for all three. I say lucky because I didn't have to pay $300 for just one of them. But for me, if I had to, I probably would not be going vintage. I think I would put the $300 towards a Livi. And believe me, one day there will be a bunch of people on e-bay trying to get a Livi and paying $3,000 for one and a bunch of people writing forums posts trying to figure out why the price is so high

Originally Posted by holli4pirating

I disagree with this statement. It's not just supply and demand.

I think the high prices are due to two main factors:

1. People have seen razors sell for crazy prices and actually believe those crazy prices are normal and then are willing to pay those crazy prices.

2. People are impatient, and will throw out maximum bids every time they see a razor they want, rather than waiting to get one at a lower price (either at an antique shop, or an under the radar auction, or from wherever else.

Like I said before, the Fillies were never lacking in supply; there have steadily been one or two per week and there were very clear indications that there were lots more coming. But because of 1) and 2) above, they were still crazy expensive.

I draw further support for this line of thinking from a contrary ebay example. One seller listed about 10 Filly DT 13's and about 10 Filly DT 14's, all were NOS. Maybe you saw it? There was a thread about them here on the forum. The 13's went for about $90 each and the 14's ranged from about $100 to $140 or so. These are the same razors that others are paying $200-$300 for. Why the price difference? With that many coming up at once, people were putting in low bids and figuring they would get at least 1 rather than putting in high bids because they HAD to have one THIS WEEK.

In short, we do disagree. We disagree about what the supply is, and we disagree about why people pay so much. You seem to be saying it's because razors are scarce and people want them. I do not see razors as scarce, and I think what people pay is a product of their ignorance/rationalization of prices/impatience. There is a big difference.

After all, how many posts do you see where people say "Yea, some guys have more money than brains" or "Yea, I just love the local finds!" or "Gotta love the off the radar auctions!"

I give up.

This Thread is to funny. I think there's some TRUTH to both sides
First America is so lazy they only look on Ebay don't know what there buying do NO Research. Talked to someone for 15 minutes about straight razors and KNOW IT ALL NOW! Its the same thing in the U.S coin market every day I have someone come in that has a RARE coin thats worth Thousands of dollars they bring it in and its a 1881-O Morgan dollar.
around 10 millon were minted thats been cleaned and circulated worth about sliver spot price $30 they get mad and leave and 2 days later they come back and NOW want to sell for the $30 but I tell them I will only give them $25 for it THEY freak out and say its worth $30 I say understand but I'm a business and I don't pay retail. AND remember stupidity has no age just an ADDRESS!!! there are great deals to be had just do some leg work Estate sales, local Auctions, Garage sales, many ways to find deals just use some gray matter!!!! Here'sa razor i got on Ebay Simmons KEEN KUTTER for $40 buck very nice razor poor listing bad pictures.

To elaborate on my post from earlier:

What "supply and demand" really means:
We can plot supply and demand on a graph. The horizontal axis represents the quantity of a given good and the vertical axis represents the price.

Lets first think of this in terms of production, say Fred is a maker of custom razors. He will be willing to make more razors if they sell for $1000 than he will if they sell for $100. Thus, a typical supply curve has an upward slope. We just need to think of the supply curve in this case as being the entire population of people that have razors to sell, rather than one individual. We can even look at specific supply such as Filarmonica razors. If they sell for $100 only a few people will probably want to sell theirs. If they sell for $1000, lots of people will sell them. We still have an upward slope on the supply side. Note that when demand goes up, the supply curve typically doesn't change. Prices go up and more will be supplied, but that's already reflected on the curve. It takes a market force affecting supply available at all price levels to move the curve.

The demand side typically has a downward slope. Lots of people would be willing to buy Filarmonicas for $50, few people would be willing to buy them for $1000. (we'll get into the effects of psychology in a bit...) We are dealing with a relatively small market; it only takes a few guys going nuts over a particular brand of razor to create a very steep curve. The equilibrium price goes way up, even though only a few people are willing to pay that price. Note that when supply moves, the demand curve typically stays the same. Prices will go up or down, and the quantity bought go up or down, but that is already reflected in the curve. It takes a change in quantity demanded at all price levels to move the curve.

For now, we just need to agree that the supply slopes up and the demand slopes down.

Where those curves cross is called the "equilibrium price" and that is the typical market price for a product. In this case the supply curve and the demand curve for Filarmonica razors happens to cross at a high price. Things that will cause a change in the price are things that cause the supply curve, the demand curve, or both to shift.

As Holli4Pirating mentioned, there are lots of Filarmonica razors waiting to be sold. The sellers are smart enough to keep them scarce in the marketplace. If they listed all of those Filarmonicas at one time it would shift the supply curve to the right (more quantity, same curve) and result in a decreased price for those razors. Anytime more supply is added, the supply curve shifts right. Anytime supply is decreased, the curve shifts left. In economics, the term "scarcity" refers to how much supply is available at a given time; the horizontal position of the supply curve. So you are both right: while Filarmonicas may not be scarce in the world, they are scarce in the marketplace, which keeps that supply curve to the left.

Demand works in a similar fashion. The slope of the curve will stay fairly consistent, but when razors are talked up the entire curve will shift to the right. More demand has been created at all price levels. If a razor is talked down, the entire curve shifts to the left: less demand at all price levels. For instance prior to the hype, I might have only been willing to pay $50 for a razor, JimBob might have been willing to pay $200. When the razor gets talked up I might now be willing to spend $70 on it, and JimBob might now be willing to spend $300... There might be small changes in the slope of the curve, but it will still be an downward curve, and the entire curve will move when a razor gets bragged up.

There are a few notable situations that pertain here:

Veblen goods are luxury items that are perceived to have a higher value because they are expensive. The slope of the demand curve for these items goes up: as they go up in price, the demand gets higher. I don't think there are any razors that have fully achieved this status, but there are a couple that are close.

Bandwagon jumping, in economics, refers to situations where people believe in an item's value because other people believe the same. This causes dramatic shifting of the demand curve.

Granted it's far more complicated than that (the curves won't have perfect slopes, and there are other factors in play), but that's the basics of supply and demand as it pertains to razors.

Same pic as before: Razor is hyped, demand shifts right, price goes from P1 to P2:
(note that if a razor was talked down, the same would work in reverse...)
(You could do the same thing by keeping the demand curve in place and shifting the supply curve... Price will go up or down depending on which way the curve moves.)