Thread: Straight Razor Blade Steel - What is Desirable, What Is Not? - And Why?

Hello Gents.

I was just honing a knife of mine, made from a highly alloyed steel called M390 Micro Clean, and I got to thinking how a similar steel might perform in a razor. If you are familiar with current knife industry trends, makers are moving to some very exotic steels, with high percentages of vanadium and tungsten carbides, processed using powder metallurgy. Other than tradition, and the fact that our great grand-daddies did not have access to such materials or processes, why haven't we seen a razor made from a steel that is "cutting edge" so to speak? (pardon the pun). In particular M390 Micro clean is made by Bohler Uddelholm's third generation powder technology, resulting in a VERY refined steel, incredibly small particle size with no inclusions, and an edge that will take a polish like very few steels can.

I have spoken to a couple straight razor makers, mainly Charlie Lewis, who said he just prefers the feel of the simpler carbon steels on his face (I also think he also prefers the ease of grinding these steels (1095, 01)) I didnt ask how much experimenting he has done with new steels, and he didnt say.

Thiers Issard brags about its carbonsong 135 steel ( a steel which I believe they mentioned somewhere has 1.35% carbon, which is relatively high as current straight razor steels go.), so I can understand that higher carbon would be desirable, as it is a basic way to increase hardness without alloying the steel. But is there something that the addition of carbides does to the steel's edge that is negative in some way? For instance, most razors are carbon steel, which I assume is also largely part tradition, but there is a razor honing tech (I havent seen his work, so i cant call him a honemeister, lol) in my area who operates a service, and refuses to sharpen stainless steel razors. Why would he have something against free chromium in a steel? long gone are the times where "if it don't rust, it must be bad," was the general consensus among blade owners.

So I ask you, is there any reason other than tradition, that we dont see higher alloyed steels in straight razors? It seems they might benefit from the edge refinement, and edge holding advantages the "new generation of steels" posses. (I use quotations because many of these steels have been around for 30 years, and are just now being re-purposed for knifemaking) What are your thoughts?

I have no idea why a "razor honing tech" would shy from stainless steel for honing. In my experience stainless just takes a bit longer to hone than most carbon steel razors. I would also like to think that many of today's talented craftsman probably have tried variations on different steels and perhaps found them wanting for the purposes of a straight razor but I certainly do not know this to be fact. I do know that all things straight razor are subjective and when you are dealing with base materials that may not have changed much in a century+ but can still deliver outstanding shaves then I would conclude that
it isn't broken and may not need fixing.

I've got a couple of Robert Williams S-30V razors that I like a lot. I've had an Ellis ATS-34. I don't know if either of those is still considered exotic ? If the maker knows the steel I think they can get the best out of it. The old carbon steel Sheffields and Solingens are not bad to hone and hold a good edge IME. Whatever alloy they used. I have some of TIs 135 steel and like it as much as their old 'silver steel.' Talking with RW about this , some time ago, he said he liked 01 for the consistency, ease of working and edge holding qualities. The new Hart steel are made from 01 as well IIRC.

Speaking from experience in honing many "Customs" I would listen to Charlie and use the simple steels

Honestly I have honed quite a few of the "Super Steels" and although they may be good for knives they are not so hot for razors...

For clarity, I do not make razors I only Restore Vintage ones and Hone any of them, so I don't care about the ease or lack of ease there is in making or heat treating and tempering there may be for the maker all I am concerned with is how it hones and shaves...

BTW honing SS razors is no different, (maybe a few more finishing laps) that is a myth that just won't die in our circles

Thats very cool, I was unaware of any razors made from S30V. In my experience, that steel has sort of a micro-serated feel to the edge, but that is with edges much thicker than would be used in a razor. As far as if its considered exotic, at the risk of sounding like a steel-snob, I would say no. I would say it is the "standard" currently in the knife industry, as far as production knifes go. I am a spyderco collector, and many of their models come in S30v as a default, with special runs or "sprints" in specialty steels.

Speaking as a former knife maker, the older style carbon steels can be worked in a fully annealed/dead soft state. Saves time and wear and tear on your wheels and belts.

I tried a powder steel back in the 80's from Crucible. It was some TOUGH stuff. I ended up wrecking the blank (totally my fault and not the steel's) during final heat treat and never went back for more.

That may a be a big consideration of the current blade smiths as they know the steel they're using and how to get the most from it.

YMMV.

In my opinion, there are "new and improved" supersteels just about every year. D2, S30V, S90V, CPM154, etc. etc. etc. They come and go as the sweetheart of the knife aficionado communities each taking their turn as the new darling to be adored. CPM steels are quite good. They make it possible to have a reasonably good steel out of a formulation that wouldn't be worth a damn made any other way. But in order for a steel to truly be a "super steel", it's got to have the right properties to excel at the job it's going to do. If it's going to be a dive knife, rust proof has to be first and foremost. If it has to withstand hot work, the ability to retain hardness at high heat is first and foremost. If it's a blade that has to withstand extreme abrasion, of course, abrasion resistance would be critical.

A razor has to be able to develop a very keen edge and it's best if that edge can be acquired by an average fellow with average hones. And high carbon steel excels at this. Particle metallurgy steels can be very fine and very pure and make the best of the compromises in alloyed steel. The whole purpose of these steels has, for practical purposes, been an attempt to try to get an edge as good as a really high carbon steel with a steel that has been highly alloyed for the sake of other "properties" that have nothing to do with creating a very keen edge.

That said, the advantage of rust resistance is a good thing. The disadvantages are that the maker will have to spend a lot of time, dollars and effort to try to get cozy with the best heat treating, tempering, forging methods for the new "super steel" with no assurance of a better result. And I'm getting the impression from the formulation of this steel that it would be extremely abrasion resistant and that's a property that isn't such a good thing for a razor, in my opinion. Extreme abrasion resistance makes a razor a real bitch to hone properly if it can be honed to a true razor's edge at all.

I expect to do some experimentation with some more of the "super steels" after I'm back in full production in Ohio, but honestly, I'm not optimistic that the work will result in a better shaver. It will certainly result in a much more expensive product.... but I'm not too sure that's a desirable property, either. Just sayin'.

When considering razors, simple carbon steels have the best properties out of all. They can reach high hardness, but can be sharpened easily, and take a very refined edge, and hold it for a long time. No surprise every custom maker is using mainly O1, 1084, 1095, W1-2, and other low allow high carbon steels. Easy to hone, easy to strop, good hardness, good edge, easy to HT and grind, simple yet perfect.

+1 for what Papa said and QED: the perfect is the enemy of the good.

This does not imply that any maker "can or can not, or should or should not" make a razor from whatever material they wish to. But as soon as you make yours from unobtainium or wunderstahl or the steel du jour, it will be obsolete as soon as/when the next latest and greatest comes along.

I like the older steels MUCH better than the new TI 1.35% carbon steel.

Mostly because the older steels are soft enough for the strop to restore a good edge after shaving.

I suppose the 135 steel would do the same thing "eventually" - but 70-80 strokes is all I can spare. After that, my lather starts drying out

Plus - I live in a humid area (Maryland), store my razors in the drawer next to the bathroom sink and across from the shower, use TP to dry the edge, but don't put on any oil - and don't have any visible rust.

So - I come down on the "if it's not broke, why fix it" side of the argument. Besides - even the super steels can't "quite" get as fine an edge as 1095 or O1. So why give up some small amount of shaving goodness to fix something that isn't broken ?