Thread: C.V Heljestrand

Originally Posted by Kees

MK is short for Magnus Kindal who sold Heljestrand razors in Paris. They still have a few left IIRC.

I hate to tell you that's not true. MK razors existed long before there was a Magnus Kindal. Nice try though.

Originally Posted by gabrielcr78

Sooo.... what about the question about no "MK" letters?

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i while back i asked a grandson of magnus kindal what these letters mean. his reply:

"You are right about that it has nothing to do with the quality. They are all initials. BK is my grandma's initial Berthe Kindal and RK is my father's initial which is Richard Kindal.
From the beginning the initials was just made for our shop in Paris after they were sold to other countries."

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by gabrielcr78

Sooooo... resurrecting this thread... I figure it's better than just adding another to the MANY of C.V Heljestrand (I hope someone actually see it )...
had to ask you guys, i've seen a CV Heljestrand Eskilstuna "N°6" and a "MK N°6".. they just look the same... but i'm confused for the lack of either MK, RK, or BK on the one that only has N°6
On other posts here it seems like it could be M. K. = Magnus Kindal, B. K. Berte Kindal and R. K. Rickard Kindal, But also it seems like it could indicate the difference of making...

i've read also that the MK N°6 is made of a different steels, even harder than other models...

any idea if then the ones with no MK are just crappy?

please let e know if anyone has the ones without the "MK" .. would love to know your impressions, especialy if you can compare it with the MK6

i have a nr. 6 (without MK, blade width 20.5 mm) and it shaves as good as any other heljestrand. as far as i know (from a grandson of magnus kindal), initially, the razors sold by kindal in paris were marked with MK, later, razors made for other markets got the stamp as well. according to the kindal website, the kindal family became the owners of heljestrand at the beginning of the 20th century.

in a heljestrand catalogue of 1957 the nr 6 is advertised as a full hollow 6/8 razor with black scales (nr 5 with white scales). nr 10 is the half hollow version of nr 6. and there was a nr 12, also with a thumb notch, that was half hollow and 7/8 wide.

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by brightred

i have a nr. 6 (without MK, blade width 20.5 mm) and it shaves as good as any other heljestrand. as far as i know (from a grandson of magnus kindal), initially, the razors sold by kindal in paris were marked with MK, later, razors made for other markets got the stamp as well. according to the kindal website, the kindal family became the owners of heljestrand at the beginning of the 20th century.

in a heljestrand catalogue of 1957 the nr 6 is advertised as a full hollow 6/8 razor with black scales (nr 5 with white scales). nr 10 is the half hollow version of nr 6. and there was a nr 12, also with a thumb notch, that was half hollow and 7/8 wide.

regards,
hans

Thanks a lot fr the great info Hans!!! Much appreciated!!
I feel a way better about this No. 6 now

Best!
Gabe

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Kindal, never owned the Heljestand razor company, they were only a sole distributorship. You just need to read the Heljestand company history to know that. Hans, I still believe your friend was telling you tales and I'll take his information with a heavy grain of salt. Read the company history and you won't find mention of Kindal anywhere. Heljestand was a Swedish company through it's entire existence - it was never owned by any Kindal family member.
You can read about the company here: The Heljestrand Family: C.V. Heljestrand – Company History - 1808-1980

Well, I certainly did not want to raise any old arguments or any sour dust here my friends...

I like the historical facts that have been provided by you Doc, thanks a lot! For sure it does not state that the company was ever owned by Kindal.
Now, we should also stick to the facts the facts and documentation in regards to what the M letter means... and for the matter, what the letters R, B and even K mean... is there any catalog, factory specs or any document stating that the razors with the letter K are superior in quality than those lacking it?

certaily there are some speculations over the matter, one particularly useful thread s this one, where the very own Neil talks about the conlusions from him and Mike, but I don't think they did provide any documentation supporting the MK= "Mästerlig Kvalite" or BK= "Bästa Kvalite".

Nevertheless. I would defined agree that there are certainly some differences between the MKs and the RKs, or between the one without ay letters and the BKs... just like there differences between MKs with the same number... differences in grinding, size, some have differences in the stabilizer, or comfort on hand, scales, etc... this only proves that the makers were creative, but by no means standardized....

to have a certain prove of which was better quality we would need to talk hard treatment and steel used in the blades... and that's really (i think) very far away fro our grasp.. as we are seeming to lack even information from a simple letter coding.

i hae not doubt that MK could very likecly be sold as a higher quality blade than an BK, but, was the increase in quality a differnt grind?, diferent (double) stabilizer?, better ergonomics?
unless the K means the blades used a different steel and heat treatment, then from my point of view, the cutting quality (edge keenness and retention) should be the same... of course nicer design pays for more, but we have stated in several treads than a dovo flowing is no better than a Dovo "best quality" (although they don't use a BQ on the tang to indicate this one is the best quality) if they use the same steel and heat treatment.. customers back then would be paying extra for the design, not for the steel and tempering quality, just like the do now...

my point is, if re go to edge retention and how sharp it can get, steel type and heat treatment re the only variables involved (i could be wrong.. wouldn't be the first time... today.. in the last 5 min... so please correct me if i am )

Now if we lack factory specs or something similar to prove the improvement in steel and treatment from one blade to the other... the next reliable source of information is a hone test and a shave test to compare the no letter, the RK, the BK and the MK.... Lynn said in one of his posts he was still to meet any C.V Heljestrand that would not meet the high standards (i would have to look for the link.. have red too many posts lately)
in the other hand, Hans says that no letters shaves just like any of the ones with letter... i would love to hear if any other members also have one or more different letters (RK, MK, BK or no letters) and could compare honing and shaving tests... and could please share your experiences

sorry for the long post!

Gabe

Originally Posted by doc47

Kindal, never owned the Heljestand razor company, they were only a sole distributorship. You just need to read the Heljestand company history to know that. Hans, I still believe your friend was telling you tales and I'll take his information with a heavy grain of salt. Read the company history and you won't find mention of Kindal anywhere. Heljestand was a Swedish company through it's entire existence - it was never owned by any Kindal family member.
You can read about the company here: The Heljestrand Family: C.V. Heljestrand – Company History - 1808-1980

dan,

my french is everything but perfect, so it is quite possible that i misunderstand the information provided by the website of kindal in paris. however, you may want to check it yourself:

history of kindal: La coutellerie Kindal
history of kindal and heljestrand: C.V. Heljestrand

the issue has been discussed on french forums as well, e.g.:

Signification MK et BK sur les Heljestrand - Page 2

it seems that the kindal family got financially involved in 1907 when c. v. heljestrand became a public company.

i'll try to get in touch with the grandson of magnus kindal this weekend. maybe i can get some more information. i'll keep you posted!

regards,
hans

Originally Posted by brightred

dan,

my french is everything but perfect, so it is quite possible that i misunderstand the information provided by the website of kindal in paris. however, you may want to check it yourself:

history of kindal: La coutellerie Kindal
history of kindal and heljestrand: C.V. Heljestrand

the issue has been discussed on french forums as well, e.g.:

Signification MK et BK sur les Heljestrand - Page 2

it seems that the kindal family got financially involved in 1907 when c. v. heljestrand became a public company.

i'll try to get in touch with the grandson of magnus kindal this weekend. maybe i can get some more information. i'll keep you posted!

regards,
hans

Wow! You're in a role there!!! And while you are at it... could you ask about the "no letters" razors?
Please!!! Hehe

Thanks man!! Great info!!

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I love a good mystery and the history of the CV Heljestand razors certainly falls in the category of mystery. What we are discussing here has been discussed and researched by many over the past 10 or more years. When I say many that includes members on this and all the other razor forums as well as museum curators in Sweden. The consensus is there is no consensus on a thing regarding the issues being discussed. Razor size; forgetaboutit! They are all over the place and we can't determine if differences are due to hone wear or manufacturing decisions. The Kindal family being discussed left Eskilstuna Sweden in the late 1880's if my memory is correct. Yes, the two families knew each other and I have always assumed that was why the Kindal family in France was given the sole distributorship for France. Were financial considerations involved, most probably. Believe me when I say I'd love to have all the answers, but no one has all the answers, if they did we would have read about it in the second post to this thread. Ken and I hold the same opinion of CVH razors, they can't give a bad shave. One more comment regarding the Kindal razor markings, be it La Duc or Kindal stamped on the blade; these razors are not as highly prized by collectors, nor do they bring higher prices than standard CVH razors at auction. They are viewed as a lesser razor compared to the non-Kindal CVH razors. I'll be curious what the grandson has to say, from my experience family lore is often very inaccurate. For me, I don't really want to have all the answers to this mystery; the mystery just adds to the allure and fun of having and using a CVH razor.

Originally Posted by doc47

One more comment regarding the Kindal razor markings, be it La Duc or Kindal stamped on the blade; these razors are not as highly prized by collectors, nor do they bring higher prices than standard CVH razors at auction. They are viewed as a lesser razor compared to the non-Kindal CVH razors.

Same situation exists with vintage Leica cameras and lenses. Those made in Canada by ELCAN, Ernst Leitz Canada, seem to be not as well appreciated as the same camera and lenses made in Germany and generally sell for less. As is the case for both CVH razors and ELCAN gear, they are definitely not of lesser quality. One of the vagaries of collector driven markets.

Bob