Thread: *P subtail razor early 1800's, looking for info

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

That's because you didn't read my post properly - I said he had five sons, I didn't mention girls!

Regards,
Neil

Neil without "Girls" their is no son, nevertheless my article claims 6 sons........

Well one of them is evidently wrong, Martin! I have re-read my source at least twice, and can only make nine kids out - but I am a bit tired...

I took some of my info from the Fox/Norris family tree, compiled by Mr, T. Ince from the family bible in 1844, so it must have been quite up to date. That gives nine children in all - three boys and three girls died in infancy:



Regards,
Neil

PS: I would amend your quote to "without girls there is no sun..."

Thats fine Neil i totally understand, im finding recently with so many publication that many entries about people or children or dates, are somewhat close but a lot of them are different like in this case. Just going with 2 sources and we allready have different information.

Yes, that's true.

In this case it makes no odds though, as the surviving children are correctly identified in both sources - the discrepancy only arises in the amount of children that died in infancy, which although sad was commonplace at the time and doesn't really concern the issue at hand.

Regards,
Neil

Originally Posted by Martin103

Funny thing is that Charlie translated the Lummus article and posted at the "Coupe Chou Club".

Right but I havn't remember this fact, I'm getting old !

PS By the way, what an erudition gentelmen !

Thanks all for informations !!!

Great information and collaboration guys. Keep up the great work, it is appreciated.

http://straightrazorpalace.com/razor...el-norris.html
Hello guys
sorry to dig up a old thread but i have a samuel norris just thought it would be intresting to show my restored razor. and thanks ffor some great info above

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

There is a little more to the *P mark than just Samuel Norris, Charlie!

For instance, in 1747 the mark belonged to Fox & Norris of Westbar, Sheffield - not Samuel Norris but his father Matthew Norris, as Samuel would have only been 2 yrs old.
Fox & Norris are also recorded in a 1787 Directory of Sheffield (confusingly, so is William Fox - he died in 1769, however - the only one of the Fox brothers left alive at this time was John Fox). Matthew died in 1761, so the Norris in Fox & Norris in 1787 must have been Samuel Norris.

This is confirmed in a 1797 Directory in which Samuel appears on his own as "Samuel Norris, late of Fox & Norris, factor, razor pen-knife & lancet manufacturer, also razor strop and case maker, 55 Westbar."

The Fox brothers (John: 1714 - 1790s, Stephen: 1716 - 1773, and William: 1719 - 1769) were Samuel's uncles, and Samuel was heir to their business.

Samuel was made Master Cutler in 1777. He had been running another business with his son as "Samuel Norris & Son" - this company is not listed in the 1787 directory, though, but it is recorded that it was dissolved in 1804 so was relatively short-lived. Samuel had five sons. Three of them - Samuel, John & William are all recorded as 'died young' which usually means in infancy and the fourth, another John, was born in 1780 and died in 1826 - he was recorded as a razor maker, so the partnership of Samuel Norris & Son was with son John. The other son, Thomas, was cryptically recorded as 'originally in trade' but was ultimately involved with the church.

Samuel Norris was declared bankrupt in 1809 and died in 1817. At the time of bankruptcy all his goods were sold, including the Westbar premises comprised of house, workshops, warehouses, a grocers shop with its own warehouse and dwelling house, land and with 4 newly erected houses on it, another parcel of land with 12 houses on it - several just built, stables, and his two grinding wheels (Cloughs Wheels) on the River Sheath.

In 1809 there were two others resident at the Culver Street works - Samuels sons John and Thomas Norris. John continued as a razor-smith, but Thomas took to the church quite a while earlier, becoming ordained in that year (1809) an Army Chaplain, Priest in 1810 and dying in Chelsea, London, in 1816.

So, if the maker was Samuel Norris then he could only inherit the '*P' mark after the winding-up of Fox and Norris - some time after 1787 (and possibly in to the 1790s, when the last Fox brother died but before the directory listing of 1797) as the 1797 listing has 'late Fox & Norris' then I would assume that Fox & Norris had traded until comparatively recently to that year. Which gives his dates of operation (ie using the '*P' mark solely for himself) as (say-) 1795 - 1809.

Regards,
Neil

Could it be then that the mark "S: Norris" dates before aprox. 1787, when Samuel Norris operated on his own?

Most kindest regards

Originally Posted by Neil Miller

There is a little more to the *P mark than just Samuel Norris, Charlie!

For instance, in 1747 the mark belonged to Fox & Norris of Westbar, Sheffield - not Samuel Norris but his father Matthew Norris, as Samuel would have only been 2 yrs old.
Fox & Norris are also recorded in a 1787 Directory of Sheffield (confusingly, so is William Fox - he died in 1769, however - the only one of the Fox brothers left alive at this time was John Fox). Matthew died in 1761, so the Norris in Fox & Norris in 1787 must have been Samuel Norris.

This is confirmed in a 1797 Directory in which Samuel appears on his own as "Samuel Norris, late of Fox & Norris, factor, razor pen-knife & lancet manufacturer, also razor strop and case maker, 55 Westbar."

The Fox brothers (John: 1714 - 1790s, Stephen: 1716 - 1773, and William: 1719 - 1769) were Samuel's uncles, and Samuel was heir to their business.

Samuel was made Master Cutler in 1777. He had been running another business with his son as "Samuel Norris & Son" - this company is not listed in the 1787 directory, though, but it is recorded that it was dissolved in 1804 so was relatively short-lived. Samuel had five sons. Three of them - Samuel, John & William are all recorded as 'died young' which usually means in infancy and the fourth, another John, was born in 1780 and died in 1826 - he was recorded as a razor maker, so the partnership of Samuel Norris & Son was with son John. The other son, Thomas, was cryptically recorded as 'originally in trade' but was ultimately involved with the church.

Samuel Norris was declared bankrupt in 1809 and died in 1817. At the time of bankruptcy all his goods were sold, including the Westbar premises comprised of house, workshops, warehouses, a grocers shop with its own warehouse and dwelling house, land and with 4 newly erected houses on it, another parcel of land with 12 houses on it - several just built, stables, and his two grinding wheels (Cloughs Wheels) on the River Sheath.

In 1809 there were two others resident at the Culver Street works - Samuels sons John and Thomas Norris. John continued as a razor-smith, but Thomas took to the church quite a while earlier, becoming ordained in that year (1809) an Army Chaplain, Priest in 1810 and dying in Chelsea, London, in 1816.

So, if the maker was Samuel Norris then he could only inherit the '*P' mark after the winding-up of Fox and Norris - some time after 1787 (and possibly in to the 1790s, when the last Fox brother died but before the directory listing of 1797) as the 1797 listing has 'late Fox & Norris' then I would assume that Fox & Norris had traded until comparatively recently to that year. Which gives his dates of operation (ie using the '*P' mark solely for himself) as (say-) 1795 - 1809.

Regards,
Neil

Maybe something interesting:



Could this be a *P John Fox BEFORE "Fox and Norris" ?